Citizenship and Immigration Committee on Dec. 5th, 2006

[Rahim Jaffer, Conservative, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

It's also why the additional costs from RAD would have to be implemented. You have to work with border services and you also have to work with immigration officials across the board to coordinate not only on the security side but in the event there are concerns about certain appeals that may happen. Is it safe to say there would be some costs related to that as well?

[Micheline Aucoin]

Yes. The CBSA sometimes intervenes at the IRB. In cases where they have intervened in the first decision, they would probably intervene at the RAD as well. There would be some costs to the CBSA on that.

[Rahim Jaffer, Conservative, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

Thank you, Mr. Jaffer.

Madame Faille or Ms. Deschamps.

[Meili Faille, Bloc, Vaudreuil—Soulanges, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I am wondering why, again today, we are arguing over the creation of the Refugee Appeal Division. The legislation was adopted in the House, not without difficulty. The process to implement the bill has not been easy.

There is one thing I find inconceivable. Despite the fact that the Canadian system of determining refugee status is a good one, we are less generous than the United States. That is quite hard to understand.

The committee heard from representatives of the Canadian Bar Association as well as retired judges, who claimed that the establishment of the Appeal Division would reduce the number of applications to the Federal Court to review claims that were rejected. Under the current process of determining refugee status, applicants who are turned down can ask the Federal Court to authorize a request for a judicial review. This authorization is granted in a proportionally small number of cases. That is why I would like you to give me that statistic.

In the event that such an authorization is granted, the judicial review of an IRB decision is more limited in scope than an appeal considered by the Appeal Division. I know that work was carried out to establish the Appeal Division. I would like to know how the process would unfold at the IRB.

It is important to know that an applicant did not need an authorization from the court to apply to the Appeal Division. Applicants who sent their requests to the Appeal Division had their cases reviewed. Of course, they could not submit new pieces of evidence, but their requests could be reviewed in-depth.

I did some research on the establishment of an appeal division at the Criminal Court, and the rationale is basically the same. However, I think that the basic principle of natural justice should be applied. It is quite normal to have an appeal division for decisions as important as whether to return an individual to another country.

Can you provide us with the costs of the Appeal Division? I have already requested those figures, but the request for distribution to the committee is probably still in the minister's office. I had asked for the current cost of the refugee determination process, from the moment an individual's application is rejected. What I basically want to know is how much it costs the Federal Court to review an application by a refugee who was turned down. I was expecting you to have those statistics, because we have asked for them on a number of occasions.

I have heard that the Appeal Division would cost $12 million to establish. That is a lot of money. Would the Appeal Division lead to savings elsewhere in the system?

[Janet Siddall]

We certainly don't have that level of analysis here. In looking at the costs, it's very difficult to parse out the costs when they're shared across a system, but we'll certainly go back and take a look at the work that has been done.

As you mentioned, you've submitted a request for information. If that information is available, we'll do our best to provide it.

But one of the challenges in managing a portfolio is that parsing out the costs across many organizations, which have other mandates as well, is often quite challenging.

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

I have three people on the list who I want to get in before 10:15, so we'll go to Mr. Komarnicki, Mr. Siksay, and Ms. Fry.

[Ed Komarnicki, Conservative, Souris—Moose Mountain, SK]

I'll share my time with Nina Grewal. She'll lead off and then I will follow up.

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

Okay, I had you down here. I didn't see Ms. Grewal. Sorry about that.

[Nina Grewal, Conservative, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you for your time and your presentation.

One witness said, and I quote, “An increasing percentage of refugees are having their claims denied.” Is that true?

[Micheline Aucoin]

No. At the IRB, if you look at the last few years, the acceptance rate has been relatively constant, in the forties. Last year it was 44%, this year so far it was up to 47%. Small variations are normal, because it's dealing with different populations. Each claim is assessed on a case-by-case basis.

[Nina Grewal, Conservative, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

The same witness suggested that the acceptance rate differed significantly, depending on which city the claimant was living in, and that this is evidence of the arbitrariness of the determination system. Is that true?

[Micheline Aucoin]

No. At any given point in time there are differences in acceptance rates, but again, it depends on the population. If you look at an office of the IRB, yes, over time there will be some variation of their acceptance rates, so sometimes one office will have higher or lower...depending on the types of claims they get.

[Nina Grewal, Conservative, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

Would implementing RAD streamline the refugee determination process? Does RAD replace any of these processes?

[Micheline Aucoin]

No, it would not streamline it. On the contrary, it adds a process to the current system. All of the processes that are available in the current system would still be available. So you would add one more step in the overall process.

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

You have three minutes.

[Ed Komarnicki, Conservative, Souris—Moose Mountain, SK]

I have three short questions.

We've heard from witnesses who have argued for a client-centred approach, an increased attention to refugee youth and the health needs of refugees. Can you speak to some of these challenges your department is facing with regard to integration needs specific to refugees, and with those two issues in mind, refugee youth and the health needs of refugees?

Then I'll come back to two more questions, if I can.

[Janet Siddall]

Well, I'll do an overview, and if there's more detail perhaps Micheline can jump in.

Yes, because we've been focusing on refugees who are in most need of protection, we certainly have found that their needs are higher than in the past, and that's both on health and integration needs.

With new money that is flowing into the integration programs, we're working with stakeholders on trying to design better programs that will address the actual needs of specific groups such as refugee youth.

[Ed Komarnicki, Conservative, Souris—Moose Mountain, SK]

All right.

Another question is in respect to the number of refugees in the world. You mention that numbers have fallen, yet there are many refugees who have been in a refugee situation for many years. Are there any new approaches the department is considering to manage down refugee numbers in the world, or are there new initiatives that you are considering?

[Janet Siddall]

I think one of the most successful new initiatives we've undertaken in recent years is working with UNHCR on group processing. So they identify vulnerable groups that have fairly similar characteristics and instead of having to do an in-depth, case-by-case review, we're able to look at them as a group. This is how we managed to move and resettle a large number of Karens, who you've been reading about.

[Ed Komarnicki, Conservative, Souris—Moose Mountain, SK]

Yes, it's a group approach to known refugees. I suppose, again, you mentioned earlier that some 50% aren't actually refugees. When you look at the group refugees, is that where it eliminates some of that issue?

[Janet Siddall]

That's my reference to how we can assist with our resettlement from abroad program to help address, as part of the international community, protracted refugee situations.

[Ed Komarnicki, Conservative, Souris—Moose Mountain, SK]

I had three questions, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

Okay, I'll allow the other short one.

[Ed Komarnicki, Conservative, Souris—Moose Mountain, SK]

No, that's fine.