Citizenship and Immigration Committee on Feb. 19th, 2007

[Diane Finley, Conservative, Haldimand—Norfolk, ON]

If I could provide that to you right now, I would. I'm sorry, but I don't have that information at hand.

[Jim Karygiannis, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

Did you advertise with any...?

Well, Minister, I see your senior staff is here. Wouldn't one of your staff or your deputy minister be able to answer that question?

[Richard Fadden]

The information in the very short term that I was referring to was retained by the passport office. I remember seeing some in the Globe and Mail and the Citizen.

The other advertising I was talking about related to the change in the rules in 2004-05. I was told by the department that we had advertised, but I really don't know in which newspapers we advertised.

We'd be happy to provide that information.

[Jim Karygiannis, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

So you might have advertised or you might not have advertised.

[Richard Fadden]

No, I said we advertised, I just don't know where. It was a couple of years ago, and I wasn't there.

[Jim Karygiannis, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

Can you also tell me what steps you're taking to advise Canadians who are living abroad and are having children and who go to register their children? Can you give me some advice as to what the department has been doing on that over the years? Does it say to them, look, if you're second generation, you could lose your citizenship?

[Diane Finley, Conservative, Haldimand—Norfolk, ON]

Well, now when they receive the card, it does have, thanks to this committee, an advisory on it. There is an indication on it that it does have a limited life. But as the deputy said, when people contact the embassy....

Remember, we don't always know who's anywhere near one of our mission offices, but if they have reason to be in touch with our mission office, there is information available there to advise them. And if the topic of citizenship comes up, then we try to make sure they are aware of the circumstances.

But we have no way of knowing who is in a given country at any time, unless they register.

[Jim Karygiannis, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

If I were to tell you that some of your officials abroad are bringing hindrance to people applying for citizenship--in Kenya, for example--

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

A very brief response.

[Diane Finley, Conservative, Haldimand—Norfolk, ON]

I'm sorry, I couldn't hear the question.

[Jim Karygiannis, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

Some of your missions abroad are bringing hindrance to Canadians applying for citizenship--in Kenya, for example--and who have been living in Canada for many years and have gone back to Somalia or Somaliland. I'm dealing with a case right now. You're office is certainly bringing blocks to this case.

[Diane Finley, Conservative, Haldimand—Norfolk, ON]

I'm not familiar with it. I need to know more information.

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

Actually, that's six minutes, so we will go to Mr. Komarnicki.

[Ed Komarnicki, Conservative, Souris—Moose Mountain, SK]

Yes, thank you, Mr. Chairman.

To Mr. Fadden, I notice we had remarks about the number of people who might be affected in the various categories and so on. To put it in some proper perspective or context, I know that the minister has added additional staff to the case processing centre and has implemented a dedicated referral line at the call centre for clients who wish to speak to an agent about their citizenship status. I'm sure that people are encouraged to call if they have any questions regarding their citizenship. And the department, I'm sure, would be more than happy to dedicate time and resources to answer those questions.

I know that there is a greater degree of coordination between the various departments, whether that be Passport Canada or Canada Border Services. But can you give some context to what has been incoming over the last number of weeks, given those resources and the call lines?

[Richard Fadden]

Yes, Mr. Chairman.

We opened a dedicated call line on January 26, and between then and the end of the day on February 14, we had 10,200-odd calls to that line on a variety of issues. Of those, 713 related to the loss of citizenship. Of that number, we were able to confirm citizenship for 670, and 43 were referred to Sydney for further review.

I think we understand that 450 is not a magic number. That's what we have in the system now. But when we find that we've had 10,000 calls, and only 43 merited further review, we have some difficulty coping with the idea that there are tens and tens of thousands.

I go back to the earlier point I made, which is that if anybody knows of a difficult case, they should register with the department. What we're dealing with now are those that have been registered, and every case that is a significant anomaly has been assigned to particular program officers. And I know that in many cases there have been many telephone exchanges with them. We're dealing with the cases, as the minister said, on an ongoing basis.

[Ed Komarnicki, Conservative, Souris—Moose Mountain, SK]

Thank you for that response. I certainly appreciate the additional effort and dedication to this issue, and I hope you continue in that regard.

I myself happen to be in a riding that borders the United States. Certainly there are many along my constituency border that might be deemed to be border babies, in that many communities are almost right on the border or are very close to the border. Many of them may have been born in the United States, but for all intents and purposes, they reside in my constituency, do their business in my constituency, and in fact have every attribute of citizenship that one might imagine. They are not only well connected to my constituency, but I would consider them to be in every way Canadian citizens. So they have a substantial connection with Canada.

Tell us, what exactly is the legislation as it relates to what we call border babies, and how has that been dealt with? How will that be dealt with down the road should people identify themselves as being in that peculiar circumstance?

[Richard Fadden]

Mr. Chairman, between 1947 and 1977, a person born outside of Canada to a Canadian parent had to register that birth within two years. Post-1977, they were eligible to be registered, as well, and it was extended.

The approach we've taken in dealing with these cases is that if there has been a substantive and substantial connection with Canada, in those circumstances where they have not registered, we are recommending to the minister that she use her authority under subsection 5(4). So if there's a case where somebody simply went abroad, as the minister said, for three days to be born, and they spent their entire time....

I was born in Quebec, 10 miles from the Vermont border. It is the same sort of situation. A lot of my friends were born in Burlington, Vermont. If they spent their entire life in Canada, we can provide documentation on that. We'll recommend to the minister that she exercise her authority under 5(4). There's no requirement for permanent residence. There's no requirement to do anything. We simply have to prove the facts to the satisfaction of the minister, and she's able to provide citizenship.

[Ed Komarnicki, Conservative, Souris—Moose Mountain, SK]

Anyone finding themselves in that situation obviously ought to get in contact with your department on the short-term basis for resolution.

I see Mr. Chapman here as well. He was one of the individuals who was quite instrumental, along with Mr. Reynolds, in the promulgation of Bill S-2 that came through the Senate and actually addressed what can appropriately be called “lost Canadians”. I know the term has been used interchangeably and perhaps incorrectly to fit situations, but that particular bill allows citizens who were minors between January 1, 1947, and February 14, 1977, who have lost their citizenship in some fashion or other through their parents, to apply online, I understand, to get that situation corrected.

Can you tell us a little bit about the process and what's involved there?

I appreciate that Mr. Chapman would think there needs to be some additional work done, and perhaps that's the case, but for the moment, what does exist?

[Richard Fadden]

The minister briefly answered this question earlier. We've had information on our website, we've produced information kits, and people are prepared to answer the question through our call centre. Since the statute has been proclaimed we've had 168 applications, and they're all in the process of being dealt with through the processing centre in Sydney.

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

Thank you.

Mr. Gravel.

[Raymond Gravel, Bloc, Repentigny, QC]

I'd like to go back to the border babies issue. Listening to my colleagues on the other side of the table, I wondered whether things were done in the same way across Canada. I come from Quebec and I'm a priest. I've registered a lot of babies during my career. It was the churches that registered births at the time of baptism.

I wonder how we can blame parents today for not registering their children, for example those born in the United States, in view of the fact that, until 1994, it was the churches, not they, who were responsible for registration. People weren't even aware they had to register their children. Mistakes may have been made by the churches. You have to go and check where people had their babies baptized or registered.

[Diane Finley, Conservative, Haldimand—Norfolk, ON]

I do not want it to be construed that I am blaming the churches, not at all. There are a number of reasons why births weren't registered, some of them administrative, some them through failure of the parents to do so themselves. What we're trying to do here is apply the law as it exists. That's why we are using special circumstances like subsection 5(4) to remedy those situations.

[Raymond Gravel, Bloc, Repentigny, QC]

It should be easier to determine whether these individuals born before 1994 are really Canadians, even if they were born and incorrectly registered in the United States. I don't want to blame the churches, but some of them nevertheless must have made that kind of mistake. Those cases must be easy to resolve.

[Richard Fadden]

The act is very clear on the subject. If there has been no registration, the person is not a Canadian citizen. Whether it was an error by the Crown or a church is of little importance. Under the act that we have to enforce, proof of registration within a period of two years is required.

In the absence of any legislative amendments, our solution is to exercise the minister's exceptional power to grant those people citizenship under subsection 5(4) of the act. It's a relatively quick process. It simply requires documents proving a specific situation.

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

Mr. Gravel, thank you.

Mr. Jaffer...or Mr. Devolin now, instead of Mr. Jaffer.