Citizenship and Immigration Committee on April 19th, 2007

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

There are too many conversations. I would like this conversation to be between Mr. Komarnicki and the witness.

When the time rolls around, you'll be given an opportunity to question.

Mr. Komarnicki.

[Ed Komarnicki, Conservative, Souris—Moose Mountain, SK]

So what you're saying is that any prerogative that a minister would have should be totally avoided and given to the IRB chair, who is appointed. Yes?

[Joseph Allen]

I said in my submission that I do not believe it is inappropriate for the chair of the board to have a good working relationship, an intimate relationship, with the minister. I don't think there's anything wrong with that.

[Ed Komarnicki, Conservative, Souris—Moose Mountain, SK]

But if the people who go to the advisory panel or new panel have already been determined to be competent to serve in the position by virtue of the testing, why would you have difficulty with three ministerial representatives on the committee?

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

It's 7:15, so there's time for a brief response from whoever might want to.

[Joseph Allen]

I think it's simply the perception and the potential for continued patronage.

We've lived with it, sir, since 1989.

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

I will cut it off there and go to our next questioner.

Mr. Karygiannis.

[Jim Karygiannis, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

Good morning.

Thank you to the witnesses for coming in.

I have a couple of questions, and certainly I want to get some timelines.

If somebody failed an immigration application and they go in front of the board, they have a choice of going the ADR way or through an IRB member. What's the timeline for an ADR?

[Stephen Green]

It varies from province to province and city to city. In Toronto it is approximately six months.

[Jim Karygiannis, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

What's the time to go in front of an IRB member?

[Stephen Green]

The way it works—for people who aren't familiar with it—is that you go to this ADR generally for spousal applications that have been refused. That takes six months. If you lose at that point, then it takes about a year and a half.

[Jim Karygiannis, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

How many cases have to go to an IRB full member, if you have any statistics, Mr. Green? How many spousal cases have to proceed to an IRB member?

[Stephen Green]

I wouldn't know how many fail.

[Jim Karygiannis, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

What I mean is, in your experience, your office having dealt with thousands of them, how many would you say have to go to an IRB full-member hearing? Would it be 60%, roughly?

[Stephen Green]

I'm not sure. That's sort of a loaded question, because it depends on your clientele. If you have a poor clientele and a poor base, then more will go. It depends on how the lawyer would select those who come to him.

In my particular practice, I would say only 10% go. But perhaps another counsel who doesn't screen as well, maybe, as I do may have 30%, 40%, 50%. I don't know what the pool is.

[Jim Karygiannis, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

If we were to guesstimate through your experience, at least from the spousal applications, would 50%, throughout the whole system caseload, have to go to an IRB full hearing?

[Stephen Green]

Really, I wouldn't know. I can talk just about my practice.

[Joseph Allen]

I can tell you with regard to Montreal. I sit on the regional IRB committee as an Acadie representative. The statistics in Montreal are that approximately 60% go to a full hearing from ADR, and time delays in Montreal are probably the same with regard to ADR, and slightly less with regard to a full hearing, 12 months.

[Jim Karygiannis, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

So we do have spousal cases from start to finish, from the time an applicant puts his application in to sponsor his wife until the wife is here, where should a bad judgment be made at the post, it could take about three to four years.

[Stephen Green]

Yes, and as I indicated, there are eight cases now before the Federal Court that are at least two and a half years waiting to get to the board. So they've had their ADR and lost, and they've waited already approximately two to two and a half years, absolutely.

[Jim Karygiannis, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

We're separating families for up to four years.

[Stephen Green]

Yes.

[Jim Karygiannis, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

Those are individuals who might have gone to an interview, and because of language skills or probably having felt a little bit intimidated by the way the questions were asked by the immigration officer—Until the spouse in Canada has his full day and brings his wife over here, we are talking about four years, and then the process has to go back again into the post for new clearances, new medicals. So we are separating—

[Joseph Allen]

And sometimes refusals, second-time refusals.

[Jim Karygiannis, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

I've seen those. We could have up to five years by the time a spouse—I'm not talking about parents, but a spouse—can come. Has that length of time—up to five years—increased over the last two years, versus before 2005?