Citizenship and Immigration Committee on April 19th, 2007

[Dave Batters, Conservative, Palliser, SK]

Excellent. And that's the objective of this government as well. Let's be very clear: the report accepted by the minister sets the bar higher and not lower in terms of accountability, transparency, and credibility. Our goal is to have a more open, transparent, and accountable system. That's why we commissioned this report and that's why we're following through on its recommendations.

Mr. Chair, the members opposite won't like to hear this, but it's been said many times, with a great deal of truth, that under the current government, we are appointing competent people, some of whom are Conservatives; under the previous Liberal government, Liberals were appointed, some of whom were competent people.

Thank you. That's all I have, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

Thank you, Mr. Batters. You're right on—you're right on time. I can't say on “message”, I'll say on “time”; the chair is impartial in all these things.

Mr. Wilson.

[Blair Wilson, Liberal, West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast—Sea to Sky Country, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, witnesses, and thank you for your testimony today. I have just a few questions.

The thing that strikes me is what are we here to try to solve? What's the problem that's before us? Well, there's a glaring problem before us, a glaring crisis that wasn't before us 15 months ago, when we first took our seats here. When we first sat down here 15 months ago, there were five vacancies—five vacancies—on the IRB. Now there are 54 vacancies, soon to go to 57 vacancies.

That tells me that—and we've had two ministers, first Minister Solberg and now Minister Finley, in the last 15 months. Both of them have been unable or unwilling to do their job. Clearly they're not doing their job if they can't reappoint judges, can't reappoint people to the board, to deal with this major backlog.

For my first question, then, why is the minister not doing her job right now?

Second, why is the minister, and why is this Conservative government, trying to change the system and re-politicize—I'll agree with my colleague, it is re-politicizing—the entire system of appointments? To take us from a merit-based system that we've gradually moved into—I'll grant them that, but in 2004 we had a merit-based system that was working, and was working well. Now it's trying to roll back the clock to the prior era of Mulroney, to re-politicize the process.

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

Order.

[Blair Wilson, Liberal, West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast—Sea to Sky Country, BC]

Those are the two big issues.

And what are they creating out of this? There are two crises they're creating. Obviously one that was discussed here is the social problems and the lack of family reunification and the other issues that individuals have to deal with on a day-to-day basis. But the bigger problem, which I think Conservatives would understand, is the security crisis they've created. We have people, as the testimony was today, who have been found guilty of crimes and can't be deported from Canada because we don't have judges to hear their cases.

So if they can't understand it from a social and compassionate point of view, they must be able to understand it from a law and order point of view and realize that the minister is not doing her job.

[Jim Karygiannis, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

They don't get it, period.

[Blair Wilson, Liberal, West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast—Sea to Sky Country, BC]

So the question I have to ask is this. Is the minister being irresponsible in her duties? Or is she doing this on purpose to try to jam up the immigration system?

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

Not that I need to inform witnesses, but from time to time we'll get partisan questions from both sides. Witnesses, please feel free to ignore those questions. We don't expect you here today to say the minister is incompetent or this or that. These are totally—

[Jim Karygiannis, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

I'd like to challenge the chair. Mr. Chair, I'd like to challenge you—

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

Order, please.

[Jim Karygiannis, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

No, I'd like to—

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

Order, order.

[Jim Karygiannis, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

Mr. Chair, I'd like to challenge you on that statement that you gave—

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

You will wait until the chair—

[Jim Karygiannis, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

—to the witnesses. Let the witnesses answer themselves.

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

You will wait—

[Jim Karygiannis, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

Stop being partisan. You were voted there to be non-partisan and you were voted there to guide the committee. You certainly have failed to demonstrate that time and time and time again.

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

Again, I would say to the witnesses, feel free to answer the questions in whatever way you deem that you want to, but—

[Bill Siksay, NDP, Burnaby—Douglas, BC]

A point of order, Chair.

I have to agree with Mr. Karygiannis. I think your instructions to the witnesses were inappropriate and that witnesses have the ability to determine which questions they want to answer and how. Your instructions to them I think were inappropriate in this case, and I hope you would reconsider those instructions.

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

Well, it wasn't a command to the witnesses or a direction. I was simply saying to the witnesses what their leeway is on this. They can, if they wish. If they don't wish, they don't have to answer those sorts of questions.

[Jim Karygiannis, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

Mr. Chair, I would like to challenge that. I would like to challenge what you said. You can either have a choice of retracting what you did and issue an apology or I'd like to challenge the chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

You can challenge the chair all you want, and I'm sure there's a process by which you can do that. I was just making witnesses aware that it is not our intention here to try to engage them in political banter back and forth with various members.

The witnesses can take that in whatever way they want to.

Do you want to—?

[Joseph Allen]

I'd like to make a comment. Unfortunately, I can't answer your question, but I would like to forewarn of another concern I have, and I'm sure my colleagues do as well.

We're faced with a looming election. That could lead to more paralysis in the appointment process if in fact we move into that phase. The situation will just deteriorate more and more as we go along. We are in a crisis.

[Stephen Green]

I don't think I can comment on the intentions of the minister, but really, the matter is before the Federal Court, and they will decide.

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

You have about one minute.