Citizenship and Immigration Committee on Feb. 25th, 2008

[Les Linklater]

At this point we aren't looking at exit controls. I think given the trade relationship with the United States, the back and forth, and the concerns we have now with maintaining an open border, it would be of considerable expense and would have to be looked at in the context of the broader international trade and mobility agenda.

[Maurizio Bevilacqua, Liberal, Vaughan, ON]

So it's not a priority, obviously.

[Les Linklater]

At this point, no, it's not.

[Maurizio Bevilacqua, Liberal, Vaughan, ON]

The very capable staff of the Library of Parliament have 18 questions written for us on the undocumented workers and around 16 on the temporary foreign workers. If I may, Mr. Chairman, I would like to have the answers. Obviously I only have five minutes and can't get answers to all these very good questions; perhaps the witnesses can respond directly to the clerk or the chair. I would like to see written responses as well.

Mr. Chairman, I notice that Mr. Linklater's statement opens by saying the issues of undocumented foreign workers and temporary foreign workers are complex. Whenever I see that phraseology, a red flag goes up, because sometimes things being complex really require non-answers. Sometimes you get non-answers on the issues because they are in fact complex.

I'm just wondering, since you opened up with that statement, what plans you have to make this issue a little more simple to understand, or to simplify the process through which we can get actual answers to these challenges.

[Les Linklater]

I think some of the key aspects of the work that's ongoing will be very helpful in bringing additional clarity to processes for the applicants and for those who are using the program.

For example, with temporary foreign workers, since 2006 we've been taking administrative measures to simplify the process for employers to make it easier for it to be understood by employees and employers alike. There is a new online temporary foreign worker guide that helps walk people through the process so that all the information from the three federal departments is now in one place to help employers use the program better.

We're looking at simplified processing. The expedited labour market opinion process is helping employers. At the beginning of this session I distributed some of the information that we are now going to be providing to temporary foreign workers, a pamphlet that advises them of their rights and responsibilities and provides them with current information about relevant provincial labour offices where they can address any complaints they have about wages and working conditions. That pamphlet is now available in English, French, and Spanish and will soon be available also in Mandarin, Hindi, and Tagalog, and we will be providing it with our documentation to foreign workers.

At the same time, as I mentioned earlier, we've been working with Ontario on an annex to the temporary foreign worker agreement. That will help bring to the table all the tools the province has around labour standards and the sanctions the province can take and the information that can be shared between the province and the three departments here to be able to take action against employers.

We're also looking at regulatory changes to make the regulations less directive, to say, for example, if there is adverse information about a past infraction on the part of an employer, either with regard to a provincial statute or a federal statute, we would look at that as part of our assessment and perhaps refuse service to that employer if the infraction was of such seriousness that service withdrawal was warranted.

So there are a myriad of things that we are doing. It is complex because there are federal-provincial dynamics; there are labour standards and wages and working conditions; there are employers. We also have a regular dialogue with organized labour around the program and how we can move forward better.

So as a result of a number of consultations and other policy work that has been ongoing, we have been trying to bring all these pieces together to tie them up in a more concise package that ministers can bring forward.

[Maurizio Bevilacqua, Liberal, Vaughan, ON]

As you know, when we're studying issues like this and others related to immigration, we're very cognizant of the fact that by the year 2011, 100% of Canada's net labour growth will come from immigration. When you consider Canada's aging population, where you're going to have, from the present state of five workers to one senior, a drop in the next 15 to 20 years to three to one, there are issues related to productivity and other issues where I think if we don't wake up to that reality, if Canada's political class does not wake up to that reality, we will indeed be challenged.

But I was interested in a comment made by the immigration minister—

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

I generally allow the question if the individual has the question started before the clock goes off. I know people are wondering. The question was started, so I'll allow the question.

Go ahead, but the time is up—a short question.

[Maurizio Bevilacqua, Liberal, Vaughan, ON]

The point I'm making is this. You cannot treat immigration as an afterthought in Canada's public policy process. There's far too much hinging on it, namely the future of our country, as far as I'm concerned.

When the minister was here, she admitted that she did not have enough resources to do the type of job that she would like. My question to you is, do you have enough resources to do your job?

[Les Linklater]

We work within the parameters that we're given. We're trying to do our best to make sure we're responding to the various needs that employers and the workers are placing on us. It's a challenge, but I think we're moving the yardstick forward.

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

Thank you, Mr. Bevilacqua.

Mr. Carrier.

[Robert Carrier, Bloc, Alfred-Pellan, QC]

Good day, gentlemen. Thank you for being here today and for shedding some light on this rather unique subject.

According to the background material made available to us, the prospective workers are the ones who must apply, in their own country, for a temporary work permit. However, the employer is the one who is subsequently evaluated. The provinces are also involved in this matter. I would like someone to explain to me how the process works. I assume the wheels are set in motion when a particular employer needs workers.

Does that employer contact Human Resources and Social Development Canada directly to find foreign workers or must he first go through his provincial government? There are after all a number of agreements in place.

[Andrew Kenyon]

I'll start.

First of all, the employer approaches HRSDC or Service Canada in the regions in each province making a request for a labour market opinion. For instance, they need a certain number of employees in a particular occupation. They identify the advertising they've undertaken, the wage they're proposing to pay, and we do an assessment of that application. That's the quickest explanation of what it is. We produce an opinion that describes the impact that we expect the bringing in of those workers will have on the Canadian labour market. That is what we provide to the employer. If it's a positive or neutral opinion, the employer then takes the next step and goes to CIC with the names of the employees they would like to bring in. It is the employees' responsibility to deal with CIC. I'll let Mr. Linklater speak to that. We deal only with the employers and we deal only with their specific applications.

You mentioned how we collaborate with the provinces. Of course, we do work very closely with the provinces. Generally, though, it is HRSDC, Service Canada's responsibility to take a decision on a labour market opinion. The exception is with Quebec, where we have a memorandum of understanding, a long-standing agreement by which Quebec actually has the final word on whether or not they concur with the labour market opinion that we produced.

[Robert Carrier, Bloc, Alfred-Pellan, QC]

Thank you.

Do you have anything further to add?

[Les Linklater]

Mr. Chairman, I want to make it clear that under the Canada-Quebec Accord on Immigration, the final decision rests with Quebec, in so far as the impact on Quebec's labour force is concerned. If there is agreement with the opinion issued by HRSDC, Quebec issues a certificate of acceptance which is then forwarded to us. We then are responsible for issuing a work permit, and for sending a note stating that Quebec has issued a certificate of acceptance, along with the certificate number.

[Robert Carrier, Bloc, Alfred-Pellan, QC]

In terms of each worker applying in his or her own country, does the employer travel to that country to recruit workers and encourage them to apply for a job, or is this something your department does?

[Les Linklater]

It depends. For example, employers that have a human resources policy in place whereby they can recruit in foreign countries do occasionally join forces to recruit workers abroad. Other times—and this issue has already been raised—some employers hire workers abroad who have recruiting skills to handle this work.

[Robert Carrier, Bloc, Alfred-Pellan, QC]

You stated at the outset that the provinces and territories were largely responsible for monitoring labour, health and workplace safety standards. What exactly do you mean by “largely responsible”? Are there certain areas for which they are not responsible?

[Les Linklater]

Federally regulated jobs, that is those in the banking and transportation sectors, come under federal jurisdiction. However, employment in other sectors is provincially regulated.

[Robert Carrier, Bloc, Alfred-Pellan, QC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

Thank you, Mr. Carrier.

Mr. Khan.

[Wajid Khan, Conservative, Mississauga—Streetsville, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I'll ask three quick questions of Mr. Bob MacDougall and wait for an answer. I'll give you more time to answer this time.

I'd like you to take the committee through the pre-removal risk assessment, how it works. How long does it take to deport someone who is considered a risk to Canada? I'd like to hear your comment on whether you're satisfied with the process or the authority in place or whether you would like to see an improvement.

The general impression is that it takes an awfully long time to get people out of the country.

[Robert MacDougall]

To your first question on the process, I think it was mentioned a bit earlier that all of the applicants have due process rights, of course. What we tend to see is the removals end of the process. It may take three or four years to actually come into place, because by the time a person goes through the process and is ready for removal, there are various, as you mentioned, levels of appeal and so on. That's what we deal with now. So when we look at removals that we're doing this year, they probably reflect an influx from about three or four years ago.

I'll perhaps leave it to my colleague to talk about the pre-removal risk assessment, if he would like. That's provided by CIC to us.

Regarding improvements, well, we're always anxious to follow the act and remove as soon as reasonably practicable whenever a person is removal ready. But of course we respect the due process and wait for that to unfold before we can actually do that.

[Wajid Khan, Conservative, Mississauga—Streetsville, ON]

So you're pointing to someone else on the risk assessment....

[Les Linklater]

With regard to the process, that's beyond my area of expertise. If you have a specific question, we'd be happy to respond in writing--perhaps with the other questions, if the chair agrees.

[Wajid Khan, Conservative, Mississauga—Streetsville, ON]

Okay. I will send you the question. My concern is that there are people who are deemed to be putting Canada at risk, and yet it's taking three, four, five years, sometimes longer, to remove them. But we can discuss that in writing.

My other question is for HRSDC. When you approve, you're dealing with the employers only, I understand. When you approve the HRSDC application for an employer who has gone overseas...and I'm talking about the lower-category drivers, chefs, cooks, etc. There are a lot of turndowns at CIC. Visa officers seem to have the final say on that. Employers then complain, “We realize what specifically we want this person for; we don't want him here as a professor of English or anything, he's just going to be a cook in the kitchen.”

How do we address this? Is that the difference between the 165,000 and 112,000 in turndowns? Is it because of the decisions of the visa officers, or are there other things? And how do we tackle it?