Evidence of meeting #13 for Citizenship and Immigration in the 39th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was employer.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Les Linklater  Director General, Immigration Branch, Department of Citizenship and Immigration
Robert MacDougall  Director General, Enforcement Program, Enforcement Programs Directorate, Canada Border Services Agency
Andrew Kenyon  Director General, Temporary Foreign Workers Directorate, Department of Human Resources and Social Development

5:05 p.m.

Director General, Enforcement Program, Enforcement Programs Directorate, Canada Border Services Agency

Robert MacDougall

They'd fall into the “other” category, I guess. I know that certainly on the statistics I have, the percentages come up to, say, 90%, but obviously the 10% are the others that fall into the undocumented foreign workers who overstay their visas and that sort of thing.

5:05 p.m.

Liberal

Andrew Telegdi Liberal Kitchener—Waterloo, ON

Okay. We would like to get a copy of that.

It strikes me every time I go to a restaurant that virtually all of them are complaining that they can't get help, and it's a real problem. When we were on break, I made a point of asking, after I got hit with the first couple of people, and it seems to be pretty universal that they really need help for people working in restaurants, yet we have no way of dealing with that part of the population, for those kinds of workers.

5:10 p.m.

Director General, Immigration Branch, Department of Citizenship and Immigration

Les Linklater

The temporary foreign worker program is demand-driven. If employers are finding it difficult to meet their labour needs locally, they can approach HRSDC with their case and demonstrate the efforts they've made to hire locally. If those have proven to be unsuccessful, they can then access the temporary foreign worker program.

5:10 p.m.

Liberal

Andrew Telegdi Liberal Kitchener—Waterloo, ON

On the issue that was raised by Wajid Khan, can you provide us with some information on the number of people who get approved and the number of people who get turned down for visas? I'm a little concerned about the number turned down by the visa officers. From your figures I think we're talking about something like 160,000 approved and 115,000—

5:10 p.m.

Director General, Immigration Branch, Department of Citizenship and Immigration

Les Linklater

No, 165,000 labour market opinions were processed by HRSDC. At CIC we issued about 112,000 work permits in 2006. I think the average approval rate is likely around 70% to 75%, but we'll get that number for you.

5:10 p.m.

Liberal

Andrew Telegdi Liberal Kitchener—Waterloo, ON

Okay. I would appreciate that.

The other situation I have involved somebody who runs an Indian spa. They wanted to hire people from India. They got the requirements and were approved for that. The employer went to India and interviewed a number of people she wanted to hire, but the visa officer turned those people down, saying they didn't have sufficient qualifications. I really wonder if everybody was dealing with this in good faith, and knowing the person, I assume it was.

My problem was with the standards applied by the visa officers in making the determination, since they probably didn't know a whole lot about the business.

5:10 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Norman Doyle

Mr. Linklater.

5:10 p.m.

Director General, Immigration Branch, Department of Citizenship and Immigration

Les Linklater

I'm not familiar with the specifics of that case, but in general terms, visa officers are looking at the applicant's ability to do the job that's been offered and their bona fides as a visitor to Canada.

5:10 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Norman Doyle

I don't have anyone else on the list here who wishes to speak.

We have Mr. Carrier and Madam Chow.

5:10 p.m.

Bloc

Robert Carrier Bloc Alfred-Pellan, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I would like you to clarify something for me. We have talked mainly about temporary workers who may become undocumented workers. What type of monitoring do you do once the temporary workers' contract has been clearly drawn up? Is the employer responsible for confirming to you that the workers have left the country once their contract has expired? If not, how do you monitor the situation?

5:10 p.m.

Director General, Temporary Foreign Workers Directorate, Department of Human Resources and Social Development

Andrew Kenyon

HRSD deals only with the employers, and under present regulatory authorities, our responsibilities are diminished significantly at the point when the labour market opinion is issued.

But as far as the workers themselves and how we determine whether they leave, I'll turn that over to Mr. Linklater.

5:10 p.m.

Director General, Immigration Branch, Department of Citizenship and Immigration

Les Linklater

Exit controls are hard to enforce. There is no systematic monitoring process in place to ensure that these workers leave the country. However, if the agency finds out that a particular person has no status, his name will be entered immediately in the removals file.

5:10 p.m.

Bloc

Robert Carrier Bloc Alfred-Pellan, QC

At the very least, do you ask employers to confirm the departure of these workers?

5:10 p.m.

Director General, Immigration Branch, Department of Citizenship and Immigration

5:10 p.m.

Bloc

Robert Carrier Bloc Alfred-Pellan, QC

Therefore, this is a good climate for undocumented workers.

5:10 p.m.

Director General, Temporary Foreign Workers Directorate, Department of Human Resources and Social Development

Andrew Kenyon

For low-skilled workers, the employer is required to pay for their return airfare to ensure that the employee actually has a ticket home.

5:15 p.m.

Bloc

Thierry St-Cyr Bloc Jeanne-Le Ber, QC

Earlier, mention was made of favourable and unfavourable opinions issued by HRSDC officials. Mention was also made of neutral opinions. I don't quite understand that concept. Either we need workers, or we do not.

Why would an employer bother to go abroad to find workers if he could find Canadians to do the job and if makes no difference?

Once you've explained the meaning of a neutral opinion to me, could you tell me why they are hired? If we don't really need them, if they really don't help our economy, then why are we hiring them?

5:15 p.m.

Director General, Temporary Foreign Workers Directorate, Department of Human Resources and Social Development

Andrew Kenyon

It's interesting, you're asking a question that I was asking of my staff before I came here this afternoon. The answer is that neutral labour market opinions are issued primarily when it is a job or an occupation that is so specialized it would have no impact on Canadians.

5:15 p.m.

Bloc

Thierry St-Cyr Bloc Jeanne-Le Ber, QC

Thank you.

5:15 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Norman Doyle

Thank you.

Ms. Chow.

5:15 p.m.

NDP

Olivia Chow NDP Trinity—Spadina, ON

Under the experience class right now—our committee has not had the opportunity to discuss this—these would be the temporary foreign workers who would be able to apply for landed immigrant status in Canada, so they can then be able to become landed immigrants. You projected 25,000 in five years, but mostly you have to speak fluent English or French, with certain skills, etc., which means I can see that the folks who have the degrees would be able to stay in Canada, but the folks who don't, the manual labourers, won't.

Given that at least half the workers in the temporary foreign workers program are the low-skilled workers, the category C and D rather than the A and B, why wouldn't you structure your experience class in a way that at least you give those who are not highly skilled, with degrees, with fluent English or French, a chance that they could actually stay in Canada or apply in Canada? That's the first question.

Also, why 25,000? Why 3.3%? Why can't 5% or 10% or 15% of the 150,000 actually stay in Canada? The 25,000 seems to me fairly arbitrary. Is that to meet the target, that is, the 260,000 number?

5:15 p.m.

Director General, Immigration Branch, Department of Citizenship and Immigration

Les Linklater

Mr. Chair, when we look at the program parameters—and they are still very much under development for the Canadian experience class—our thinking is that those temporary foreign workers in the skilled trades, the technical occupations...that is a very significant gap the labour market is missing out on now. We would like to ensure that those individuals have the opportunity to apply to remain permanently in Canada, after having worked for a specific period of time. We know that only about 8% of the skilled workers coming in through the overseas grid are in the skilled trades, and those are the key occupations that the economy needs now.

With regard to low-skilled workers, a fair proportion of the low-skilled workers are eligible, through the LCP program, to apply for permanent residence. There's another significant group, the seasonal agricultural workers, who come for about eight months every year, who are part of that low-skilled group, who would not be eligible to remain permanently at this time. The remainder of those low-skilled individuals are very much coming in at the request of specific employers in specific sectors in specific regions.

I use the example of long-haul truck drivers, which is an occupation that most provinces are experiencing a shortage of, and many of whom are using their provincial nominee programs to allow those people to remain in Canada as permanent residents. So there is an avenue there, as well as the arranged employment scheme, which would allow individual employers to nominate individuals to meet their particular labour market needs.

With regard to our forecasts as to who would be applying under such a new class, we have looked at the historical data of those temporary foreign workers and international students who are in Canada and who have been in Canada for two years. If we implement this category in 2008, that means people who have been here for at least one year, if not two, would be eligible to apply. So it's a retrospective assessment of the number of workers here at the higher skill levels.

We have purposefully taken Americans out of that group because we have found, historically, that temporary foreign workers from the United States do not stay. They are here for a number of days, a number of months, but they tend to go home. So looking at the remainder of the population, as well as taking out working holiday participants, international youth students who are here and who have open work permits, we have based our assessments on the remainder of that pool, which would lead us to about 25,000. We've also factored in a potential draw factor for implementing this program as well as anticipated growth in the temporary foreign worker program.

5:20 p.m.

NDP

Olivia Chow NDP Trinity—Spadina, ON

Mr. Chair, that was a long answer, and I think I'm going to run out of time. I think our committee really should look at the experience class program, because I see that under another program that used to be called the low-skilled pilot project we have workers in areas such as cleaning, hospitality, manufacturing, oil and gas, construction, etc., and they are not likely going to be able to fit under the experience class. If this committee is to make some sort of suggestions as the department is about to put the policy in place, I think it certainly should have some discussion regarding which of the 150,000 temporary foreign workers each year should be allowed to stay and apply in Canada, and what that number should be. Why should it be 3% or 8%? Why shouldn't it be higher? I believe if they're good enough to work here, probably most of them should be good enough to stay here.

5:20 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Norman Doyle

Thank you.

Ms. Kadis.

5:20 p.m.

Liberal

Susan Kadis Liberal Thornhill, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I just want to pursue some clarification regarding the live-in caregiver program that we were discussing previously. Did you say that you're working on changes to this program? It sounded to me as if you were. Again, I'm particularly interested in how long it takes someone to gain a new work permit in the same field if they have to leave an employer due to abuse or problems that are encountered. Does it jeopardize that two- to three-year period to obtain the permanent resident status? Is that along the lines you're talking about, and does it signify a change in government policy?