Citizenship and Immigration Committee on Feb. 25th, 2008

[Les Linklater]

The discrepancy in the numbers can partly be attributed to refusals, but I think a number of employers look at a number of options to meet their HR needs, and temporary foreign workers would be part of that strategy. In effect, sometimes an improved labour market opinion may not actually manifest itself in an application with CIC for a worker, but of course there are refusals, as you have mentioned.

When it comes to the way the program works, HRSDC does deal with the employer. Their role is to establish whether or not there is a legitimate job from a legitimate employer with a need that cannot be met domestically.

When it comes to the actual issuance of the work permit, it is CIC's responsibility to determine whether or not the applicant that the employer has identified has the ability to do the job that's been offered; that they have the acceptable experience, as outlined in the labour market opinion; and if, finally, they are someone who, in the opinion of the visa officer, is going to return to their home country or leave Canada once their work permit has expired. Those are, grosso modo, the assessment factors that our officers take into account.

You mentioned low-skilled. I think there are some instances where perhaps people may not have established to the satisfaction of a visa officer that in fact their ties to their home country would be sufficient to have them return to their home country after their work period.

[Wajid Khan, Conservative, Mississauga—Streetsville, ON]

Very quickly, before I turn it over to my colleague, is there any consideration given to those who have worked here for extended periods of time--four, five, six, or seven years--and whose kids are going to school, when it's towards the end of the school year, in terms of allowing them any time to liquidate their assets?

[Les Linklater]

In terms of prior to a removal, for example?

[Wajid Khan, Conservative, Mississauga—Streetsville, ON]

Yes. Let's say it's decided a person should be deported. Is there any consideration given to the timeframe concerned in deportation, allowing them to liquidate their assets or to get their kids through the school year?

[Robert MacDougall]

Certainly whenever a person is identified for removal they are called in for an interview. During the interview that would all be discussed. The timing and arrangements would be made with the officer at that time.

[Wajid Khan, Conservative, Mississauga—Streetsville, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

Thank you, Mr. Khan.

Mr. Telegdi, please, five minutes.

[Andrew Telegdi, Liberal, Kitchener—Waterloo, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Linklater, could you get to this committee the copy of the draft memorandum of understanding done with the foreign workers? The reason the previous government didn't do anything with it was they got defeated. It was a happy day for the bureaucracy, but it wasn't a happy day for the government or undocumented workers.

So we want to see that. Thank you.

How much money do we spend, Mr. MacDougall, on removals every year? What did we spend last year?

[Robert MacDougall]

I actually have that number for you. The last fiscal year we spent $23,433,000 on the removals program.

Just to be clear, we have four lines of business in our internal inland enforcement area--

[Andrew Telegdi, Liberal, Kitchener—Waterloo, ON]

I only have five minutes.

So we spent $23 million?

[Robert MacDougall]

That's on the removals program specifically.

[Andrew Telegdi, Liberal, Kitchener—Waterloo, ON]

Okay. How much are we scheduled to spend this year?

[Robert MacDougall]

I'm not sure exactly. I'd have to get the exact figure for you.

[Andrew Telegdi, Liberal, Kitchener—Waterloo, ON]

The other one is this. Please provide the information. You said you don't have it right now, but I think it's a legitimate question.

Immigration should have an idea how many Canadian citizens there are living abroad. Every time you deport undocumented workers, there are children going along who are Canadian citizens. Surely to God, having dealt with lost Canadians all this time, we're trying to get a handle on how many Canadian citizens we have abroad, and that includes how many kids.

Mr. Linklater, you should be able to get those figures, so we are looking for those figures.

The other issue is the power relationship. You admit a worker into Canada to work for one employer. It's a terrible power relationship. The worker is totally powerless. I think it would be much better if you were to admit someone to work in a sector, so that they can go to another employer.

We saw that with the live-in caregiver program. Somebody comes in, is totally victimized by their employer, and then, if they want to respond to it, they are booted out. That's not fair, so we really want to deal with the issue.

We have temporary foreign workers, particularly in the agricultural sector, who come back here decade after decade after decade—some of them up to four decades. It reminds me of the old days when we brought the Chinese in to build the railway and then put in place the Chinese Exclusion Act. There is something wrong with that.

If we're going to have people the economy needs, it would be preferable to have them be Canadian citizens, rather than have them be here, be put out, and be brought back for that many decades. I would really love to have some discussion of that.

Mr. Linklater, you mentioned that this is a very complex issue. It really doesn't have to be that complex. If you look at the fact that we have undocumented workers, for the most part it was because of the failure of the point system we have in place, which we have finally recognized, and we see the programs that are being put in place because that has been recognized.

If you look at undocumented workers who have been contributing to building this country from the perspective that they are persons who had a chance to be in the country helping the economy, let's look at them as an immigrant on probation. Did they do well or did they not do well? Did they establish ties in the community or did they not? Did they break the laws or did they comply with the laws?

Mr. Chair, if somebody comes in as a regular immigrant, once they are in it's very hard to get rid of them. Let's look at these people as having been here and having helped the economy. Let's see how they did. If they did well and fulfilled the probation, then we have a way for them to stay. So I'm looking for those issues.

The last issue is to take away with you the questionnaire from our researchers. We would like to have answers for all the questions that weren't answered. There are 18 questions, but many of them were answered. This would be a good homework project for you, and it would be beneficial to our committee.

This is a critical issue we are dealing with. Immigration has been the lifeblood, is the lifeblood, and it's going to continue to be the lifeblood.... Our productivity is suffering because we do not have enough people working in jobs that need them. We have too many jobs and not enough workers.

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

Thank you, Mr. Telegdi.

Next are Ms. Grewal and Ms. Ratansi.

Ms. Grewal.

[Nina Grewal, Conservative, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Talking about these undocumented workers, I would like to know what the consequences are when employers employ these undocumented workers. Are there some rules in place?

[Les Linklater]

If it comes to light that an employer has not been abiding by the terms of the contract or has not been respecting provincial legislation, provincial authorities can take action with the employer by sanctioning them under provincial statute. If there are criminal offences that relate to the immigration status of the individual involved, the Canada Border Services Agency would take that on as part of an investigation and perhaps prosecution.

[Nina Grewal, Conservative, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

Does Canada have exit controls?

[Les Linklater]

No.

[Nina Grewal, Conservative, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

So how complicated could it be to have visits with the government prior to their departure? Is it very, very difficult to follow that procedure?

[Les Linklater]

There are approximately, I think, if my memory serves me, about 100 million border crossings into Canada every year. That means we would have to document everyone coming in and everyone going out, with the resources that would be required at our ports of entry to be able to do that.

[Nina Grewal, Conservative, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

How much time do I have, Mr. Chair?

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

Three and a half minutes left.

[Nina Grewal, Conservative, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

Okay.

Mr. Batters.

[Dave Batters, Conservative, Palliser, SK]

Thank you, Mrs. Grewal.

I'll just dive right in here. I agree with Mr. Telegdi that a robust immigration strategy is essential for this country. We are facing a labour shortage like nothing we've seen before, and it creates some great challenges.

I just want to ask you a few questions about a case that presented itself in my office, in my constituency. Granted, this was pre-9/11, so the world has changed an awful lot since then. My understanding is that this was fairly common pre-9/11. This individual came to Toronto from Iran, from a flight from Tehran. In any event, he came to Canada on a fraudulent passport, using someone else's passport. The customs officials recognized right off the bat that this gentleman was not the gentleman he said he was on the passport.

I realize you'd have to know the specifics of the case. But in general, why would that individual, or individuals like that, not immediately be put on the next plane back to Tehran and just dispatched out of the country? This individual was allowed to stay in Canada. My memory is failing me. I'm not sure if he applied as a refugee, but he didn't originally come in applying for refugee status. He came in on a falsified passport and was allowed to stay in Canada and was granted a temporary work permit. He fell in love with a girl in Canada and she then had his baby, and the story goes on and on. Now my office has the nightmare of this individual really wanting to come to Canada because this woman has his baby, and the story is, understandably, “No, you tried to get in the first time using a fraudulent passport”.

So that's my question to wrap up the time. An individual like that gets off a plane...and maybe you could comment on how it was handled then and if it would be handled differently now. In the same scenario right now, if that happened, would the person be put on the next plane back to Tehran or wherever they came from if they used a fraudulent passport?

Thank you.