Citizenship and Immigration Committee on March 5th, 2008

[Andrew Telegdi, Liberal, Kitchener—Waterloo, ON]

One of the ways we can maybe get the minister here is to take the estimates and take something out of them. That would get the minister scrambling here very quickly.

This is really the height of arrogance. It is the job of the minister to appear before the committee. This is the committee that's supposed to do due diligence, and quite frankly, for the minister not to come to this committee is in contempt of this committee and our duties. And it is also contemptuous of Parliament.

If the minister is not going to come here, we should just take the estimates and put a fix in there. We'll just take something out. Then watch how quickly the minister is going to come before the committee to defend those estimates.

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

Okay, thank you.

Go ahead, Madam Chow.

[Olivia Chow, NDP, Trinity—Spadina, ON]

Mr. Chair, I actually do have the estimates in front of me. But given that it's the last possible meeting, shouldn't we have the estimates in front of us anyway, with or without the minister? Also, my understanding of the rules is that if the minister refuses to come, the deputy minister has to be here.

I don't know why the estimates are not scheduled. I thought there would be another opportunity on Monday afternoon. That is no longer the case. What I thought the clerk said a few days ago was that Monday was the last day we could intervene, as it would be deemed reported on Monday by five o'clock. If that is not the case, then this meeting today is the last opportunity one could have to look at the estimates, move motions, and study them. Beyond today we will have missed it, so I don't know why it's not scheduled today, given what the clerk has just learned.

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

It's customary, I'm told, that the minister would appear before the committee for supplementary estimates, but somebody asked if it's compulsory. No, it's not in the rules that the minister appear before the committee, but it's customary that the minister would.

Okay, I have a list here.

You can have a short one, Mr. Karygiannis, because you already spoke.

[Jim Karygiannis, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

Mr. Chair, I've been a member of Parliament for twenty years, and I have yet to hear that a minister does not appear before the committee to move main estimates. This is the first such time I have heard of this.

I don't think the minister is playing in the spirit of this committee. She is certainly circumventing this committee.

Therefore, Mr. Chair, I move that we vote against the main estimates.

We don't have an opportunity to study them and look at the them. Telling me that we're going to look at them right now, at 4:15 on a Wednesday afternoon so they can go in on Friday, doesn't do justice to me or to any member of this committee or to the people of Canada.

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

Okay, we'll go Mr. Bevilacqua, Mr. Khan, and Mr. Komarnicki.

[Wajid Khan, Conservative, Mississauga—Streetsville, ON]

I have a small suggestion. In the interest of going through these estimates, if the minister is not available, and you are really interested in getting the job done--I know, politically speaking, that some people, my colleagues, may disagree--then a request could be made for the deputy minister to appear. Would that be acceptable to the committee?

[Jim Karygiannis, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

No, it should be the minister who runs the department, not the deputy minister.

[Wajid Khan, Conservative, Mississauga—Streetsville, ON]

Are we interested in the estimates or interested in the minister? The idea is to educate us.

[Jim Karygiannis, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

If the deputy minister runs the department, then let us know. We'll put our request in to the deputy minister.

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

Order.

Mr. Bevilacqua and Mr. Komarnicki.

[Maurizio Bevilacqua, Liberal, Vaughan, ON]

I don't think the members of this committee are asking a lot when they ask a minister to appear to state her case in reference to the estimates. I think every minister knows this happens.

They know they have to go to committee about the estimates. They should allocate one day out of their busy schedule when they're not in cabinet fighting for more money for immigration. We know there's not enough funding to provide Canadians with a proper immigration system.

I find it puzzling that the department, or the minister herself, if she is not available, does not offer up the capable parliamentary secretary. That's traditionally done.

This, though, is an abdication of responsibility on behalf of the minister, and one that we in this committee take quite seriously. If the minister's not willing to stand by the resources her government has provided for the department, then you have to question her sincerity when it comes to managing her department and standing up for immigration in this country.

So it's not an issue that this committee should take lightly. It's a very serious situation and an abdication of ministerial responsibility towards the committee.

Look, people on the opposite side can toe the party line on this, but they themselves know it's wrong for a minister to be absent and missing in action.

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

Thank you, Mr. Bevilacqua.

Mr. Komarnicki.

[Ed Komarnicki, Conservative, Souris—Moose Mountain, SK]

Let's first of all get what the motion said. Can you read the motion? I think it talked about the minister coming here by Monday, with a 24-hour notice before she came. I don't think we have anything saying she won't come. The motion said we should give 24-hour notice before—was it Monday? Do you have the motion?

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

What motion are you referring to?

[Ed Komarnicki, Conservative, Souris—Moose Mountain, SK]

I mean the request for the minister to appear. We made some kind of request with a 24-hour notice. What did it say?

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

I have no motion before me.

[Ed Komarnicki, Conservative, Souris—Moose Mountain, SK]

It was some kind of request that was to go out. What was the request? Just hang on a second.

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

We'll get the clerk to....

[Ed Komarnicki, Conservative, Souris—Moose Mountain, SK]

There wasn't a response saying no, as far as I gather. We may change the timeline, but let's find out what the request was.

[Jim Karygiannis, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

Chair, do you have a motion on the floor for me? Can we deal with that?

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

Yes, after I get the clerk's opinion on the request to the minister. Are you referring to the request to the minister? What was the request? It's a letter, really.

The request apparently was that the minister appear before the committee to defend her estimates. That was essentially what was contained in the letter, was it not, Mr. Clerk?

[Ed Komarnicki, Conservative, Souris—Moose Mountain, SK]

There was something about 24 hours before Monday.

[Jim Karygiannis, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

It asked that she give the committee members 24 hours' notice that she was coming, to allow us to prepare ourselves.

[Ed Komarnicki, Conservative, Souris—Moose Mountain, SK]

Did we say when? I think we set Monday as the date, with 24 hours' notice.