Citizenship and Immigration Committee on March 10th, 2008

[Susan Kramer]

It's very difficult to make a decision on the case without having all the facts.

[Jim Karygiannis, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

It's very simple: there are two Canadian children; the Canadian husband sponsors the wife. In your words--

[Susan Kramer]

I understand, but I'm not prepared to comment on that case without having more detail.

[Jim Karygiannis, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

It's a hypothetical case. Do you think we should remove the woman? You said it makes no sense to remove somebody who'll come back tomorrow; those were your words.

[Susan Kramer]

But I--

[Rick Stewart]

Susan, can I interject?

I think that as a hypothetical answer, what you have described would be a circumstance that we would want to look at closely. Respecting the privacy of the case itself--we're not at liberty to speculate about the facts of a case--I think we would look and we would consult as departments on the specific facts of the case in hand to determine whether it was appropriate to proceed with a removal action at that point in time or not. There'd be a judgment made on whether to proceed. I think that's all we can say at this point.

[Jim Karygiannis, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

You also said that you consult with CIC before you remove people.

[Rick Stewart]

I'm sorry, sir?

[Jim Karygiannis, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

Didn't you say you consult beforehand with CIC before you remove people?

[Rick Stewart]

That is in cases in which they have applied for family reunification. Under this class, they will consult with CIC to determine whether we can reach a conclusion on the case before removing them.

[Jim Karygiannis, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

I put it to you, sir, that there is no consultation whatsoever.

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

Thank you, Mr. Stewart and Ms. Kramer--and of course you, Mr. Karygiannis.

Go ahead, Mr. Carrier.

[Robert Carrier, Bloc, Alfred-Pellan, QC]

Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen.

There are a number of things being discussed, but we are surprised by the many time limits. First, there is the time limit for the approval in principle, which is the initial assessment. Why does this take, on average, five to six months? Is there a staffing shortage? I have a hard time understanding why an application can take an average of five to six months. Perhaps you could provide figures per category. There are perhaps simple cases, with simple couples who have simple lives, while others have a criminal past. I do not understand why it takes five to six months. Could you explain that?

[Rick Stewart]

I think the biggest factor in relation to your question on why it takes that amount of time is purely the volume of business we do as a department. Each year we get about 17,000 application in the spousal reunification class alone. It's been roughly 17,000 over the last two to three years, or in that ballpark--17,000 to 18,000.

Those are big numbers when you add them on to the volume of business we do across the entire network of immigration. This is just one class. It is a question of just pure volume.

[Robert Carrier, Bloc, Alfred-Pellan, QC]

I am sure you know that these are always very sad cases and that these people are anxiously waiting to hear back. In our constituency offices, we often see the reactions of these people who come to us for help. They tell us that they had applied several months earlier and have not heard back. It is hard to understand. Do you need more staff? Does the government need to give you sufficient financial resources to hire the necessary staff? That is the first thing. You say there is a lack of resources. The government should take note.

I have questions about the other time limits. Earlier, Ms. Kramer said that a removal order can take a lot of time, from one to two years. I think that if it has come to a removal order, it is rather important. There must be a very important reason to remove someone to his country of origin. In some cases, it is questionable, but in general, it is a decision made after a thorough analysis. Why does it take so long to remove someone? You said that when it is a matter of a threat to national security, the process is quicker. I would hope so, but why does it take so long?

[Susan Kramer]

Many people appeal. Every decision can be appealed.

There are applications to the Federal Court to stop the removal. There are all kinds of mechanisms that delay a removal. Right now, for example, in the Immigration and Refugee Board there is a delay of eight to nine months before an appeal is heard. These are some things that are out of our control.

In addition, those who are being removed are entitled to a pre-removal risk assessment. It takes about eight months to process that. Sometimes it takes time to get travel documents for people we're removing. Sometimes we need to do a medical assessment to ensure they're fit to travel.

There are various factors that can have an impact.

[Robert Carrier, Bloc, Alfred-Pellan, QC]

That answers my questions in part. Thank you.

Are removal orders issued before the approval in principle has been given? You said that before issuing a removal order, you accelerate the approval in principle process. What is the approximate percentage of removals that take place before the approval in principle process is complete?

[Susan Kramer]

No, there really aren't, because we cannot make a decision. The relationship has to be assessed first, before we can stop the removal. But our system does not allow us to break down exactly what percentage of those being removed are people who have been accepted.

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

Thank you.

[Jim Karygiannis, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

On a point of clarification, Mr. Chair, Mr. Stewart said there were about 17,000 applications across the system. Was he referring to 17,000 spousal applications within Canada per year? Is this what he was referring to?

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

That's a good point. I was wondering about that too.

[Rick Stewart]

Yes, there are about 17,000 applicants a year under the in-Canada spousal class, including those in status and out of status, or the two together.

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

Okay, 17,000. Thank you.

[Olivia Chow, NDP, Trinity—Spadina, ON]

Can I clarify one other thing on that?

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

Yes, okay. I'll allow one more, and then I'm going to Ms. Grewal.