Citizenship and Immigration Committee on April 2nd, 2008

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

We're back in session. We're waiting for Roberge Transport, whose people are not here yet, but we do have Kramer Ltd. and the Canadian Manufacturers and Exporters.

So I want to welcome you here today. We will get your comments officially on the record.

Mr. McLellan is part of that delegation, of course, as the CEO and director general of the Saskatchewan Chamber of Commerce. Welcome, Mr. McLellan.

Generally, you know how it works: we go with five- to seven-minute presentations.

Feel free to start. We are now back in session and are recording.

Go ahead, Mr. Kocdag.

[Gurcan Kocdag, National Board, Canadian Manufacturers and Exporters]

Thank you, Mr. Chair and esteemed colleagues. I have five copies of my quick notes, which I'll just pass on to you.

We have an opportunity to relay the concerns of the Canadian Manufacturers and Exporters. I sit on the national board of the CME, whose member companies have been involved in the foreign worker program and the SINP, the provincial nominee program, over the last five years. I could certainly speak to the benefits of the programs, but I guess the purpose of the hearing today is to find out what areas we can do better collectively in, and perhaps the areas of concern for us and our members.

The first area I'd like to raise is the lack of apparent cooperation and communication among the provincial organizations, Service Canada, and Citizenship and Immigration Canada. What we found throughout the process is that different levels of government operate in silos; there's very little exchange of information and documentation, both electronically and physically. Therefore, we are having significant delays in processing.

We also found that information seemed to be processed at every level, without any integral impact on the different levels of the government, including the visa posts. Our issue here is that throughout the process, the foreign worker program does not operate on its own; it actually needs cooperation from the visa posts and the local and provincial offices. Unfortunately, we do not see any kind of effective cooperation at that level.

The second area of concern I'd like to raise is the duplication of required documents. Generally, when people apply for temporary work permits, the documentation is also required for the provincial nominee program and for the permanent residency applications as well. It creates a huge problem for the applicant, making the processing difficult and causing significant delays.

In terms of the labour market opinion rules, we have a significant problem in terms of the advertising requirements and the fact that we're required to prove and re-prove that certain types of skills are still in shortage, even though both the provinces and the federal government do have their own skill shortage lists—and these are nationally published lists—but these are not necessarily considered by Service Canada for LMO purposes.

I had alluded to the difficulty with processing times, and some of our members also encountered difficulties from additional information requests after the original application was made. As an example, when the wage became an issue or was perceived to be an issue by Service Canada, one of our member companies was actually required to produce a union contract to prove that the employees were going to be paid x number of dollars. It just creates a difficult environment, where the lack of trust becomes very apparent, and it's not necessarily a productive work environment.

We are also finding that once the LMO is done, once the block of visas is approved in principle, it is very difficult to go through the process and actually get those visas, especially if you need any assistance from the visa post, from which it's impossible to get any consistent answer. Most of the time you don't even get anybody answering the phone, because the work hours are so limited at the visa post overseas. When we have any kind of information...the only reference is to go to the website and find the answer we're looking for there, which is almost impossible.

So there are a lot of areas that they could improve upon. As a business association, and commercial businesses ourselves, we see the relevance and the benefit of the programs, but hopefully with cooperation on both sides, you'll be able to improve the overall performance significantly.

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

Thank you.

Jan, please.

[Jan Katerynych, Human Resources Manager and In-House Counsel, Kramer Ltd.]

Thank you very much, once again.

We've already been talking over lunch about a lot of the problems that we, as employers in Saskatchewan, are running into with both the federal and the provincial process.

First of all, I want to let you know that I'm here in a dual role. At lunch, I was talking in terms of Kramer itself and the experience we've had there. I'm also here representing the Saskatchewan Chamber of Commerce, along with Steve. I'm on the youth, education, and training committee, and this is one of our main focuses on that committee. So we're looking at immigration and the labour market from a provincial perspective on behalf of all industries. My notes for this particular presentation are based on that viewpoint.

We've talked a lot already about how the system is not working here in Saskatchewan. There are ridiculously long waiting times in order to get labour here. It's a ridiculously confusing process, and the level of employer frustration throughout the entire province is growing.

There's a lot of finger pointing going on between the province and the federal government and employers. This is a result of the confusion and frustrations that are going on. However, we are optimistic, because we have a new government in Saskatchewan, which seems to be focusing on immigration. As well, we have a relatively new minister in Ottawa. So we're hoping that we are going to see changes of a dramatic nature in the very near future.

Saskatchewan is way behind the pack in terms of access. While real world numbers have been increasing in recent years, only 1.1% of the permanent residents and 1.3% of the temporary foreign workers who entered Canada in 2006 chose Saskatchewan as a place to emigrate to. And I'm not sure if everybody is aware of this, but Regina and Saskatoon are the only two large western cities where the number of refugees is greater than the number of economic immigrants—and this is significant. It is a significant difference within the province. It does give us some really good settlement services within the province, but it doesn't do a lot for business.

We are, and will remain, welcoming to refugees in Saskatchewan, but we really, really need to expand our numbers in the other classes of immigration.

Regarding the proposed changes to the Immigration and Refugee Protection Act, the chamber and I are not of the view that any extraordinary powers have been granted to the minister by the proposed changes. I and the chamber believe that these changes are only going to serve to enable the Department of Citizenship and Immigration to better implement targets that the business community agrees with. We agree this is sensible and measured legislation, serving to reduce the number of newcomers allowed into the country, to ease the backlog of applications.

I understand that the proposed modifications—and the spirit behind the proposed modifications—are intended to permit CIC to select among the new applications received and to choose those that they determine will best suit Canada's labour market requirements. If that is in fact the spirit of the modifications—and I understand it is the spirit—they can only benefit us here in Saskatchewan.

While a valid point can be made that increased levels of family class immigrants can aid overall retention rates, we're of the view that a balance has to be found. Of the immigrants let into Canada in 2006, 103,000 were family class or refugees—with, arguably, similar levels of economic contribution—versus 138,000 economic class immigrants. According to Citizenship and Immigration Canada's own data, the number of refugee and family class immigrants has been steadily growing while the number of economic class immigrants has been largely flat.

However, there are also many bright spots in immigration policy, such as the greatly increasing numbers of provincial nominees. Particularly in the example of Saskatchewan, our own immigrant nominee program needs to continue to work diligently to increase the numbers, and our chamber will continue to lobby for that to be accomplished.

Overall, the last 10 years of immigration statistics did not give Canadian business confidence that a solid plan was in place. For Canada to meet its labour market needs, we need to overcome past precedents of fits and starts and keep a steady course on immigration policy. For this reason, we feel that the proposed amendments to the Immigration and Refugee Protection Act are reasonable. The Saskatchewan Chamber of Commerce supports them as such.

The provincial chamber will explore these issues at an immigration forum next week in Saskatoon in an effort to help employers in Saskatchewan gain a greater understanding of the immigration process.

Only a short time ago, some members of this committee—and I was lucky enough to be present—attended a lunch hosted by the Saskatchewan Chamber of Commerce that put our province's business community and the committee together to share experiences and hopefully convey some of the frustrations and delays in our experiences with the immigration process in Saskatchewan.

The provincial chamber also organized a teleconference meeting with the Minister of CIC last fall so that Saskatchewan businesses could directly convey their experiences. I was present at the meeting, and in short order we asked her to streamline the process of immigration. We asked her to shorten the timeframes. I talked specifically about the issues with the Manila embassy, which have caused us a lot of problems in Manila. We want the Manila embassy problems fixed, and we want the policies updated to represent the current situation in Saskatchewan. The economic situation has changed, and we really need to meet the change in Saskatchewan.

We are also having speakers at the Saskatchewan chamber's annual conference on business address the subject in an ongoing effort to maintain dialogue with the province's business community and officials responsible for immigration. In addition, the committee I'm part of has prepared a brief on the immigration process for the benefit of our members' reference, and we'll be presenting policy resolutions, some specific policy changes that we are suggesting, and we're going to be making those at the conference on business and immigration, with recommendations that we hope will be adopted by the federal and provincial governments.

Thank you.

[The Vice-Chair, Bloc, Thierry St-Cyr]

Thank you very much.

Mr. McLellan.

[Steve McLellan, As an Individual]

The bulk of the information and the good news has been presented. I would like to make a couple of comments and just reiterate, perhaps, some important points. One was referenced earlier today, and that's to enhance the structure to welcome families, not just individuals. That is an absolute criterion for our immigrants to be long-term Canadian citizens, should they choose, and more importantly to enhance their time in our country. It's absolutely critical.

Also, I think I would encourage you and the department to look at opportunities to allow, and more important, to welcome provincial government representatives to work within the consulate offices in select countries. We've talked here in Saskatchewan about picking three or four countries that are important to us in terms of key origins of our needed workforce. If we were to have an opportunity where it was easy for us not just to be allowed but, as I said a minute ago, welcome to have our folks in those consulate offices, we think the process would be much more expedient.

I don't want to leave this session without congratulation for the announcement made just a few months ago—and Ed was kind enough to be in Regina to make the announcement on behalf of the government—of expanded dollars to the settlement process. As Jan has just said, that's critical to the success of the immigrant to the province. We have some hard-working folks in this province who have done a good job of it, and we congratulate you and once again thank you for those announcements.

My final comment will be not a threat or a warning but a caution. Other countries that have challenges to their immigration system—one just south of us—have found that when people couldn't get in the country legally, their illegal immigrants were of significant number and were therefore a long-term, significant challenge. We don't have that challenge in Saskatchewan now. I think in Toronto and perhaps some of the larger centres there are more folks who are indeed, by definition, illegal.

I say it again, not because our business community is starting to move in that direction but because our business community is in dire need of workers. They are looking at creative, legal opportunities, but the confusion you've heard today, and I'm sure you'll hear as these sessions continue, will drive some of these folks to say, “What other opportunities have we?”

As the Saskatchewan chamber, we are not advocating and we are not supporting anything that would bring in an illegal worker. However, I say as a caution to you that if we as a country don't get this issue solved to bring in these people who want to be here, the demand will be not only on our businesses to look at these as options but—more importantly and more likely—from the immigrants themselves, when they see what their options are where they live now and what the opportunities are in Canada. They will take the chance, cross the border, and do as they have done in other countries.

I hope that doesn't happen. We're not anxious for it to happen, and we'll work against that, but I need your support in order to make sure the process is fluid enough so that it isn't a requirement of doing business in or living in this country.

Thank you.

[The Vice-Chair, Bloc, Thierry St-Cyr]

Thank you very much, Mr. McLellan.

We should have time for seven minutes per member.

Mr. Carrier.

[Robert Carrier, Bloc, Alfred-Pellan, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Welcome to our committee meeting. I am a member of Parliament from Quebec. We are looking forward to getting to Ontario and Quebec to see if the provinces are similar, but we are starting in western Canada. We are learning a lot about this problem. I have a number of questions. I will start with Mr. Kocdag.

For temporary workers, you said that an employer's requirement to prove that his needs cannot be met locally is not really adhered to by the Department of Immigration, and, as a criterion, it is vague. Can you give me some specifics about that and say what your recommendation would be?

[Gurcan Kocdag]

Excuse me, if you could, please clarify the question.

[Robert Carrier, Bloc, Alfred-Pellan, QC]

You mentioned that the requirement for an employer to prove that he has looked at every internal possibility before considering temporary workers is used to differing degrees when approving temporary workers. Do you understand?

[Gurcan Kocdag]

Yes, I do. Thank you.

Our situation, as we were given the information from Service Canada, basically leads us to believe that before we can make a job offer to a foreign national to come and work in Canada for a period of time, we are required to prove to the Canadian government that we have exhausted every opportunity to hire a Canadian resident, whether a Canadian citizen or a landed immigrant. That requires us to advertise nationally, and we have to make sure that we do have evidence of advertising, evidence of looking for people and interviewing the skill categories to make sure we have made a reasonable effort and have offered them the wages the Government of Canada requires us to or deems to be reasonable. If that whole process fails, then Service Canada will consider giving us the go-ahead, based on that labour market opinion, to hire somebody from outside of the country.

We think that given the labour market conditions today, it's extremely onerous, totally unnecessary, causes extreme delays, and really doesn't take the international competition for skilled labour into account. To give you an idea, when we started interviewing people outside of the country for the jobs we have, most of the original applicants we offered jobs to ended up in places like Europe, Australia, Brazil, or Singapore, simply because it was significantly faster to get processing in those countries than it was in Canada.

[Robert Carrier, Bloc, Alfred-Pellan, QC]

Thank you.

I have a question for Ms. Katerynych. You mentioned that, in Saskatchewan, there are more political refugees, refugees of various kinds, than landed immigrants, immigrants of various kinds. You seemed to find that regrettable. If I understand correctly, you want there to be more immigrants than refugees. I would like to know what problems are caused by refugees and not by immigrants. Why do you consider that perhaps the ratio of refugees to immigrants is too great?

[Jan Katerynych]

I apologize. I didn't mean to give the impression that I think it's by any means disappointing or deplorable. I'm just trying to put forward the business community's opinion that we need more economic immigrants, as opposed to increasing numbers of refugees. We are receiving a significant number of refugees here in Saskatchewan, and once they are received by the settlement agencies, and if English language skills are provided and so on, they do become economically contributing to Saskatchewan. But right now what we need is skilled workers who can come in and actually start to help contribute to our economy right away.

[Robert Carrier, Bloc, Alfred-Pellan, QC]

In my constituency in Quebec, I had to deal with the case of a person who was a refugee in Saskatchewan. She was very unhappy because she knew no one. Given that she had family in Quebec, she decided to move there. That is the kind of problem, perhaps.

In your opinion, do you receive more immigrants in Saskatchewan than elsewhere in Canada? If so, do you know why? Is it because you ask for them specifically?

[Jan Katerynych]

I have to be honest. I'm not sure how the numbers are determined as to how many refugees actually come into Saskatchewan. And I don't think it's a disproportionately large number of refugees; what I think we have is a disproportionately low number of economic immigrants.

And I agree; I know that retention of our refugee population is also a problem here in Saskatchewan. A significant number go to places such as Vancouver, Toronto, and Quebec, where the family supports are and where the community is. We lose a significant number.

[Robert Carrier, Bloc, Alfred-Pellan, QC]

Thank you.

Mr. McLellan, you would like to identify countries where people could be recruited and be given temporary worker status. How do you see that? Is it your opinion that the Department of Immigration should be responsible for recruitment in designated countries?

[Steve McLellan]

I don't think it should be the Canadian government necessarily that makes the determination of these countries. I think the provinces should.

Your constituent is a good example. When people travel to Canada or come to Moose Jaw.... If I were from the Philippines, I would like to have a welcoming community, but I'd also like to have some other Filipinos around, so that when I chose to celebrate my cultural holidays I'd have people with me.

What I'm suggesting by that is that we need, as a province, to start to focus on those countries where we can build a community of Filipinos, Ukrainians—whatever the case is. The province needs to make those decisions, not necessarily the federal government.

What the federal government could do, though, would be to determine that once a province has made those decisions—that this half dozen or these four countries are those that Saskatchewan truly wants to focus on and truly wants to attract a community from to their province—then you should, as a federal responsibility, start to say, “We will welcome the Saskatchewan representatives in those consulate offices, we will fast-track those applicants through those countries, and we will work with you to expedite those people”, not to the disservice of others, necessarily, but recognizing the focus on those countries.

This is the concept we're talking about in this province that I think has great merit. But again, the decision needs to be made by the province.

[The Vice-Chair, Bloc, Thierry St-Cyr]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Komarnicki, you have seven minutes.

[Ed Komarnicki, Conservative, Souris—Moose Mountain, SK]

I'll just make a few comments, because we've heard a lot of what you've had to say.

From a point of encouragement, when we met last fall, we had an opportunity to speak to the minister, indicating to me a process of a certain amount of collaboration and partnership between the business community, the federal government, and the provincial government. I know we had the opportunity to hear of new changes from the province and from business, and I think that's a good thing in the start of this whole process. I certainly would encourage that. Being here today in Saskatchewan and hearing from you, many of our committee, I think, find things happening in Saskatchewan that need some immediate attention, and we need to start working toward that end. I am encouraged by what I see.

I know the LMOs have been a big topic. That's under human resources, not our committee, but it's important because it ties in eventually to immigration. The provincial minister and I have talked about that. We have talked at the federal level and made representation to add temporary foreign worker units in Alberta and British Columbia. Some offices opened up in the east in Ontario to deal with expediting those and to deal with occupations under pressure.

I certainly hear what you're saying, and I will take that back. I will say that Saskatchewan's economy is really at a critical mass, and we need to see if we can include Saskatchewan in that. I know the provincial representative this morning said that might be a long way away, but I think we need to keep working on it, because it's a cumulative effort.

Another thing is that the settlement immigration funding, as important as it is, is also tied into numbers that are coming in. I am fully convinced that the provincial nominee program is the vehicle through which a lot of this can happen. I think we've demonstrated that this morning, and we've talked about it. As Saskatchewan increases its numbers, it will also increase the funding that comes to it; we've seen a $1.5 billion increase in funding from one year to the next--which is a lot--but there is a long way to go and to grow. I think we need to keep that in mind.

In terms of illegal undocumented workers, my sense is that our system has not allowed people to come in through the legitimate way, so they try to come in some other way or in an underground way altogether. It seems that if we want to fix the system, we need to deal with them in some fashion. More importantly, why are they there?

I hear it from all of you. We don't have a nice simple stream, so we need to find a way to match newcomers with the demands of the economy. I think a lot of people have not yet caught on to the fact--whether they're in administration, bureaucracy, or wherever--that the economy is growing exponentially and that there is no internal way to meet those needs. The way to meet them is through external means, but we need to have a system that matches better. I am hopeful that the legislation you spoke of will play a part in that, but I realize it's a process.

Having summarized what I've heard here today, I would ask each of you, if you had one comment or direction to the committee, to say what that might be. Give us a quick one-two, and my time will be up.

[Gurcan Kocdag]

From our point of view, I think the most important thing that we would really like to see is concrete evidence of cooperation and communication among the departments involved--both provincially and federally, including the visa process--so that only one set of documentation would be used.

[Ed Komarnicki, Conservative, Souris—Moose Mountain, SK]

Okay.

[Jan Katerynych]

I would comment about transparency and the confusion between departments. At the very beginning you said the LMO is actually HRSDC, not Immigration. To the general public, they are Immigration, and that in itself is confusing.

I know that when you're intimately involved in the process and so on you understand that it's HRSDC versus Immigration, but to the general public, the business community, and so on, an LMO means immigration. That in itself is indicative of the level of confusion that starts right at the top, moves all the way down, and filters down throughout the entire process. We really need to see some clarity, some education, and some understanding as to how to streamline this process.

[Ed Komarnicki, Conservative, Souris—Moose Mountain, SK]

Just to add to that, I find the smaller communities that want to attract newcomers to their community have a difficult time knowing where to start, because it is a complex system. How do you figure it out and know what you have to do to encourage newcomers coming in?

I announced in Lethbridge, in Moose Jaw, and in other centres where we're working something called the small community toolbox. It's some things you need to know if you want to succeed in attracting and keeping people and making sure they stay. It has become a very complex system, and I find at times I'm muddling through it and wondering how this thing really works. There is that hit-and-miss aspect to it, and there shouldn't be. We do need to concentrate on that area for sure.

[Jan Katerynych]

In conversation before we started, we had this chat at the beginning. We're intimately involved in the process of immigration—lawyers by trade--and we found we're still confused by the process. It's very confusing.

[Ed Komarnicki, Conservative, Souris—Moose Mountain, SK]

Right, and having worked with some constituents through some processing, I found that I have experienced some difficulty. I'm just wondering how an individual would be able to work through that on their own.