Citizenship and Immigration Committee on April 7th, 2008

[Nina Grewal, Conservative, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

Of the two million displaced Iraqis, in your opinion, how many will never be able to return safely to Iraq? How do you distinguish those most in need, when over two million have been displaced?

[Ghina Al-Sewaidi]

I'll leave that to Yanar, actually, because she's more involved directly.

[Yanar Mohammed]

We can answer it jointly.

At this point my friends in Sadr City are all hostages. Some of them had to find a job so they went to the army. They were told they could not take a job unless they brought a recommendation from Sadr. Now that the government and Sadr are split with each other, the Sadr claims them to be part of his army, and the government tells them, “If you go to Sadr, you will be killed.”

So the youth--and I'm speaking here about hundreds of thousands--are split between this and that and are threatened by both sides. Those who were able to make it outside the country are humiliated, but they are alive. If they go back, at this moment they cannot guarantee their lives for the days to come.

As for women, it is getting worse and worse. It's a big prison. I am wondering why, with the 10,000 that have been spoken about here, there isn't a quota for women there. From my experience, 60% of the population are women and are discriminated against. And you're not even a second-rate citizen. Sectarian killings also have another face to them: the systemic killing of women.

If you are in Syria, in Jordan, even in Turkey, and you even think of going back to Iraq--and nobody thinks about it, unless they are deported--your life is not guaranteed at all and you're living in a daily hell.

[Falah Hafed]

I would like to add one point here. I'm quoting from the UN High Commissioner for Refugees, António Guterres. Guterres said that the UN High Commissioner has clear global criteria on the conditions needed for the voluntary return of the refugees and that these criteria are not met by the situation in Iraq now--this was in March.

[Nina Grewal, Conservative, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

Mr. Chair, is my time over?

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Andrew Telegdi]

Your time is up. We're going to go to Mr. Karygiannis because he didn't get an answer to his question, then we're going to go to Mr. Carrier, and then we'll stop with the parliamentary secretary.

Quickly, please.

[Jim Karygiannis, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

Do we have five minutes, Mr. Chairman?

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Andrew Telegdi]

No, we have three minutes.

[Jim Karygiannis, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

I'm just going to ask the questions again--I know some of them were asked.

Is there any difficulty regarding religion? Is one religion targeted more than another religion? I know today we have a cross-section of all religions here, so if any of you want to answer that, by all means do so.

Is the Shi'ite community, or the Sunni community, or the Christian Assyrian, Mandaean, or Chaldean community being affected more?

I'd like to also ask you to address the issues in Damascus and the difficulty that you have. Maybe this committee will undertake to invite the officials from Damascus in order to really go into the situation.

And about the numbers, sir, you said we should go to 10,000. I know some of my colleagues may say, why from Iraq and not from somewhere else? Obviously Iraq is a place of need right now. So if you could address that, by all means do so.

Thank you.

[Ghina Al-Sewaidi]

Perhaps I could answer the question about the embassy, because I'm involved with it and it's really very frustrating for me.

It's very, very important that the chaos at the embassy in Damascus be dealt with. What is happening is that people who have been in line for five or six years, even as skilled workers, cannot go back to Iraq and are waiting in Damascus. And they apply with the UNHCR at the same time, causing a double backlog. There are a lot of applicants at the UNHCR and then a lot of applicants at the embassy. I really, really think that the embassy issue—the paperwork, the disorganization of their files and their system—should be dealt with and rectified.

An example is their fax number. It alternates, or changes; it's not always the same fax number. So when I try to send a fax and it doesn't go through, I go on the Internet to see which fax number they are using. They have two fax numbers, which change. I check which one it is, and if the fax goes through, then I'm lucky. If it doesn't go through, then I have to mail the application by registered mail, or express, or DHL to be sure that it will get there.

Quickly again, the reason we should accept Iraqis from Iraq and not people from Darfur or other regions is that there are Iraqi families here who are willing to take care of their families financially. For example, there are brothers and sisters. This used to be in the system earlier on and then it was taken away.

I get a lot of questions from people in Iraq: I want to bring my brother, I want to bring my sister, and I will undertake whatever the Canadian government wants me to do. I'll put whatever amount of money they want in the bank to secure the fact that these people will not be a burden on Canadian society.

So there should be a special program for Iraqis, as there was in Bosnia when there was a war there. In Lebanon there were problems, and suddenly a lot of Lebanese came here. The organizations were given grants by the Canadian government to support those Lebanese.

What is so different about Iraqis, when they are in a much worse situation than other nations?

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Andrew Telegdi]

Okay, thank you very much.

We're going to have a question from Monsieur Carrier. They're looking for a lot of refugees in Quebec, so anybody who speaks French has a....

Monsieur Carrier.

[Robert Carrier, Bloc, Alfred-Pellan, QC]

Thank you for coming to make us aware of the problems experienced by the Iraqi community. Mr. Hafed spoke about the problems that refugees face here when they are accepted. We also need the ability to make refugees feel welcome when they arrive. There is no perfect solution. If we accept more refugees, you might have to be ready to look after them yourselves so as not to create new problems for them when they arrive.

Both of us come from Quebec. We too are trying to make refugees feel welcome so that they integrate into our society. We devote a lot of effort to that, but success is not automatic. Take religion for example. In Quebec, the vast majority used to be of one religion that we have tried to move away from in order to make people from other religions feel welcome. We wanted not only Catholics to feel welcome, but also people from other religions whom we are welcoming to our country. That is not an easy solution.

Yet Ms. Mohamed and Ms. Al-Sewaidi spoke about the problems that exist at the moment. They told us that Iraq has become a prison for women. It is beyond belief that the most powerful country in the world, which has been in the country for five years now, can have created such a situation as a result of its intervention.

My political party is one that prefers humanitarian and diplomatic actions to armed invasion, which does not settle conflicts. I wonder what your opinion is of Canada's efforts in trying to take humanitarian assistance to the refugees. It seems to me that the best solution for the Iraqis would be if they could live in their country, if they could rebuild a peaceful life in their own country, rather than being forced to leave that country for one on another continent. Are you also looking for us to increase our aid there instead of providing the opportunity for more people to leave their country?

[Salam Gatih]

I think Canada could view both sides. What's needed at the present time is help for the refugees in surrounding countries. We're mainly talking about Syria and Jordan, which are feeling the greatest effect of the Iraqis there. Turkey and I think Yemen are less affected. I know there are people there.

These people need help because the resources of Syria and Jordan are very limited. There are four million or more people, and they need the help of Canada at least. That's one part.

The other part I think is to reduce the burden on Canadian society to accept a number of people. I think the least we could do right now is to have family sponsorship this year. For example, the Mandaean Canadian Community Association is willing to give you the list of families who are here and who are willing to take care of their families who come, and I believe the same applies to the other communities.

In these cases it's not going to be an additional hardship on Canada to accept these people. A lot of these people who left Iraq without choice are educated, so when they come here they want to work and be part of society.

So I think the answer to the question is that we could do both: assist the refugees because of the limited resources there and, at the same time, sponsor and accept the families who have relatives here who are willing to take care of them and help them integrate into society. In this case we have lived our commitment to help other countries--a great country like Canada.

Thank you.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Andrew Telegdi]

Thank you very much.

[Robert Carrier, Bloc, Alfred-Pellan, QC]

Perhaps someone would like to give another answer.

[Yanar Mohammed]

Yes, I will need to answer the part where he asked about the intervention and how Canada does not do any military intervention, and the suggestion of whether Canada should provide humanitarian aid for Iraqis.

We have spoken to other governments also, including the Swedish government. We told them that what is needed right now is a civil intervention, checking on the accountability of the Iraqi government, having open eyes, being a watchdog over what the government is doing to the Iraqi people.

For example, have some surveillance of the Iraqi prisons. Do not give grants to the Iraqi government unless they abide by human rights. Do not give them aid unless they write laws that make women equal to men, that make us full human beings. And also, support civil institutions, because that's where the Iraqi intellect and hope lies.

Unfortunately, the strong groups on the ground, which are militant and which are ultra religious, are the government now. They are in control of the government. But the civil society is there and it could be the alternative. It needs to be supported by the governments, by CIDA. And we do not see much of them inside Iraq yet. That initiative needs to be supported.

The government needs to be under surveillance for its human rights abuses, and especially the abuses on paper--the constitution, which makes women and other minorities inferior by law. That is where civil intervention needs to take place.

That can be discussed further, maybe in another meeting. We invite the Canadian government to take the initiative to invite the Iraqi community to a conference to see what this intervention could be.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Andrew Telegdi]

Thank you very much.

Now we're going to Mr. Komarnicki.

[Ed Komarnicki, Conservative, Souris—Moose Mountain, SK]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I appreciate the time, so I'm not going to ask any questions. I'm going to just end with a couple of comments.

I certainly appreciate hearing from you. I hear from you that you'd like to see Canada playing a leadership role in this issue. It requires compassion; there's no doubt about that.

I hear from Mariam that it's an emotional thing when you're on the ground and seeing this. Having shelter, food, and water is very important.

I know that Canada proportionately does its share in humanitarian work. When we look at refugees, Canada takes about one out of ten amongst all of the countries in the world, and so it's taking a leadership role already in a sense, but it needs to do more. We also provide funding to countries that quite a few millions of people flee to, and we need to continue to do that. I know we've given over $400 million.

The question would be, as I think Jalal Saeed said, we need to help in all areas, but how? How do we make it most effective? I take that to heart, for sure. And I really appreciate hearing from Yanar about the women's situation in Iraq and how inhumane some of that treatment is. We need to take all of that into consideration in deciding how best we approach it. We probably need to look at this from many levels, not just from one particular level.

I know Canada is doing a fair bit, and the minister has indicated that she'll increase the number--more than double it--to 1,800 to 2,000 Iraqi refugees. I hear what Jalal is saying. He's talking beyond that. So those are the kinds of things we need to struggle with in terms of how we best approach it and on which level to get the maximum effect.

There's a tremendous number. When you look at the number of refugees, it's into the millions. That's why, when you're talking about thousands, it's a drop in the bucket, really. Somehow we have to take all of that into account.

I appreciate your taking the time and being very forceful in your presentation. It's certainly an emotional issue, and I'm glad to hear from those people who are on the ground who have seen and heard what's happening out there.

Thank you very much.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Andrew Telegdi]

We're going to be closing off this panel now.

I would like to thank you again, on behalf of the committee, for being here and making your presentations. I can only say that it's in every country's strategic interest that we reduce tensions in that part of the world as much as possible to make sure we have stability. We're aware that Syria and Jordan are very nervous with the number of Iraqi refugees they have there, and they've virtually shut the door.

So we thank you for your presentations, and we'll be continuing these hearings across Canada.

The committee will now adjourn and come back at one o'clock to start the next session on undocumented workers and temporary foreign workers.

The meeting is adjourned.