Citizenship and Immigration Committee on April 10th, 2008

[Andrew Telegdi, Liberal, Kitchener—Waterloo, ON]

I have a point of order, Mr. Chairman.

As I said before, I welcome the new member, but to give out false information.... Refugees don't go in the backlog. If Canada wants to move refugees, they can do it very quickly. We should look to the Kosovars as the last example. We moved big numbers very quickly.

That is a point of order, because he is misinforming the committee.

[The Vice-Chair, Bloc, Thierry St-Cyr]

Mr. Telegdi, you know very well that that is not in any way a point of order.

[Raymonde Folco, Liberal, Laval—Les Îles, QC]

A point of order, Mr. Chair.

[The Vice-Chair, Bloc, Thierry St-Cyr]

Yes, Ms. Folco.

[Raymonde Folco, Liberal, Laval—Les Îles, QC]

I would like to add that there are now 60 vacancies on the Immigration and Refugee Board, which means that every day there are 60 refugees not being heard by the Board.

[The Vice-Chair, Bloc, Thierry St-Cyr]

Ms. Folco, is that your point of order?

Mr. Harvey, you may continue.

[Luc Harvey, Conservative, Louis-Hébert, QC]

There needs to be some housecleaning done in the immigration process. We are working on it. We are putting a lot of effort into moving things forward.

There is also another problem. We are in a minority situation, and the opposition parties are not helping us to help you. it is also important to understand that. As I explained when I first spoke to the previous group, my wife is an immigrant. She came when she was 11 years old. Her father gave her to a Canadian family. I am familiar with this situation. When it comes time to invite my mother-in-law or other family members to visit, I know that it means a lot of red tape. I know how much work it all is and most importantly I know how emotional it is. I can simply tell you that we are sensitive to this and we understand your needs. We will try to help you as best we can, to move things along.

Thank you for being here today.

[The Vice-Chair, Bloc, Thierry St-Cyr]

Thank you very much.

There is no time left for questions. I would like to thank the panellists who took part in our session.

We are now going to take a very short break so that the next group of witnesses can come forward to the table. I would ask the members not to go too far.

[The Vice-Chair, Bloc, Thierry St-Cyr]

I would like to welcome the witnesses who are appearing before us today.

As you certainly know, you are at the House of Commons Standing Committee on Citizenship and Immigration.

You will have seven minutes to make an opening statement. I would warn you that this is very little time, much shorter than you might have thought. To assist you, when there is one minute remaining, I will signal you by raising one finger so you can wrap up. There will then be a questions and comments period with the members.

This morning we have Jill Hanley, Assistant Professor at the McGill School of Social Work, as an individual. From the Union des producteurs agricoles, we have the First Vice-President, Pierre Lemieux, and Hélène Varvaressos, Director General of d'AGRIcarrières, Comité sectoriel de main-d'oeuvre de la production agricole. You may divide up the seven minutes available to you as you wish.

So we can start. Ms. Hanley, you have seven minutes.

[Dr. Jill Hanley, Assistant Professor, McGill School of Social Work, As an Individual]

Good afternoon, everyone. It's my pleasure to be here today.

I'm going to be focusing my comments on the temporary foreign worker program.

I'm here in my capacity as a researcher today. My comments are based on eight years of research done in collaboration with other university-based researchers and in cooperation with community organizations that give services to migrant workers.

Our research has focused on what we call precarious status migrant workers. These are people who come to Canada not as permanent residents but with a range of temporary statuses ranging from undocumented to trafficked to temporary foreign workers, and we actually see that often people who are permanent residents feel themselves to be precarious in terms of their permanent right to stay in Canada.

What I want to express very strongly is a concern about the temporary foreign worker program being used to expand the bringing to Canada of workers without giving them permanent status here. Our work on precarious status workers has clearly demonstrated that there is a problem with these workers' feeling that they have the full rights of Canadian workers. We see that in labour rights, health, education, family separation and reunification, sense of belonging, and unionization—in all of these areas—temporary foreign workers face major barriers. Sometimes the barriers are legal—they are excluded in policy from certain benefits—and sometimes it's the conditions of their work, or their fear of ultimate deportation or refusal of an eventual permanent status here in Canada.

What we are concerned about is that if a temporary foreign worker program, coupled with the Canadian experience class, is being seen as a way to make our immigration system more responsive to the labour market, we feel it has long-term implications. When people come as temporary foreign workers—and under the Canadian experience class it's being suggested that for two years they stay on this status before being able to become permanent residents—in those two years they are not eligible for settlement services. We see that this has a long-term impact on people.

It's also very difficult for people, especially in the low-skill categories, to be accompanied by their families on this status, and having a two-year or longer.... So far, for live-in caregivers, whose program has basically the same structure as the temporary foreign worker program, plus the CEC, we see that they often have four years or more of separation from their family.

I question the wisdom of using a temporary foreign worker program in a wider sense. I feel that it has human rights and social rights implications that are negative for Canada and for the people coming under this program. I would like to see that, rather than our using temporary foreign workers, people who are able to work in Canada and have job offers be offered permanent residency status.

We see that the Canadian permanent residency point system is very skewed towards high-skilled, highly educated migrants, when in fact in our economy we have high demand for lower-skilled migrants. Those who come in as permanent residents usually end up in the lower-skill types of jobs anyway, so we feel there's a disconnect between the exclusive evaluation of the permanent residency and the demand in the labour market.

To summarize, I hope people have questions, but basically in my research everything I've seen about the social rights implications for temporary foreign workers seems to indicate that the very temporary nature of their status creates barriers for their human and social rights. I feel that the objectives of Canada in immigration and social development can be met just as easily by giving these people permanent status from the get-go.

I think most provinces are interested in increasing immigration that is tied to employment and that this can be coupled with a policy to give permanent residency upon arrival to people who have job offers. And this would better respond to all the human rights and social rights concerns they have.

I've tried to make it brief, but that's the main point of what I would look at.

[The Vice-Chair, Bloc, Thierry St-Cyr]

Thank you very much.

Now it is Mr. Lemieux's or Ms. Varvaressos' turn.

You have seven minutes.

[Pierre Lemieux, First Vice-President, Union des producteurs agricoles]

Good morning, everyone.

The UPA is an association of two kinds of groups. There are regional federations, based on geography, and production groups, in which producers choose to join together to market their agricultural products.

The UPA relies on the direct commitment of more than 3,000 producers acting as its administrators. Year in and year out, the 50,000 farmers in Quebec invest over $600 million in the economy of Quebec. As well, there are 35,000 forestry producers, who harvest about eight million cubic metres of wood annually, for a total value of some $450 million, thus contributing to the 16,000 jobs created by the forestry industry in the regions.

Over 30,000 agricultural enterprises, the majority of them family farms, create employment for about 59,000 people. The Union des producteurs agricoles is involved in the issue of temporary agricultural workers through a non-profit corporation set up by the UPA. The corporation is overseen by the board of directors and members of the general council of the UPA. The corporation has a Director General, Hélène Varvaressos, and is one of the 30 sectoral workforce committees in Quebec.

I am going to ask Ms. Varvaressos to present the rest of the brief.

[Hélène Varvaressos, Director General, AGRIcarrières, Comité sectoriel de main-d'oeuvre de la production agricole, Union des producteurs agricoles]

Good morning, everyone.

In Quebec, the demand for foreign workers has increased dramatically because of labour shortages. In 2007, according to data from Service Canada, there were about 5,175 foreign temporary agricultural workers from Mexico, the Caribbean and Guatemala in Quebec.

Over the past several years, a number of changes have been made to foreign temporary worker programs in order to improve the tools and processes. Programs that were generally reserved to horticultural operations are now open to all agricultural production Quebec.

The UPA has signed agreements with Service Canada to have the regional farm employment centres, 14 of which are located in Quebec, analyze foreign worker applications in order to meet the needs of producers.

The changes being proposed by the Canadian government are worth considering and designed to support the agricultural production sector. We are pleased to be able to rely on the Foreign Worker Program to stabilize the labour requirements of farming operations.

The first and most important point, in our view, is the large number of foreign temporary workers in a single workplace, on farms which in many cases are isolated. That calls for special measures to ensure that these workers are properly integrated.

The UPA believes that farms need more support with their approach to human resources. The farm employment centres that have already been set up in the region can play a valuable role in establishing a network for sharing best practices, success stories and concerns relating to hiring foreign temporary workers.

We want to explore the possibility of playing an active role in introducing a voluntary conciliation process to solve labour relations problems between employers and foreign temporary workers and providing training for employers and supervisors. The farm employment centres could play a valuable role in this area.

The second important factor is integrating foreign temporary workers into rural communities. Integrating several thousand workers into small villages in Quebec presents challenges and can have a significant impact on the local population and settlement services provided to the workers. Employers and communities do not have the tools to do this properly. We therefore propose that the governments concerned provide rural communities with the means to help them settle and integrate foreign temporary workers as best they can, so as to facilitate dialogue with local residents.

The third important point concerning changes to the Foreign Worker Program is to improve the tools and processes. There are no fewer than 13 different institutional players involved at one point or another in the foreign temporary worker application process. The process has to be streamlined and duplication eliminated.

There are currently 5,000 foreign temporary workers and it is anticipated that this number will grow significantly. Given the current capacity of the system, we seriously question its ability to meet the needs adequately without the quality of service declining.

One of the major improvements made by the federal government is on-line posting of employers' notices. We seriously question the usefulness of this approach because high-speed Internet access is not widely available in rural areas. At present, the farm employment centres are helping producers submit their postings. We propose that Service Canada maintain the agreements with the farm employment centres to help producers submit their foreign worker postings.

Because farms do not have human resources specialists in their field, they need outside resources. We recommend that simplified management guides be offered, because at present it is very difficult for people to find their way around them at present. We would also like to see more information on foreign recruitment opportunities. At present, employers are left to their own devices and have to do their own recruiting, and this is not always easy.

We also recommend that the transition from temporary worker to permanent resident status be made easier. At present, some foreign temporary workers, for example from Mexico, have been here for 10 or 15 years. If we want to have them immigrate, immigration constraints and criteria do not favour them, and that is unfortunate, because they are exceptional potential immigrants since they already have work experience and experience with Quebec.

In conclusion, the agriculture sector hopes that it can continue to rely on the Foreign Worker Program. Special attention must be given to the situation of foreign workers because of their vulnerability. The media pay a great deal of attention to this issue, but the government has to properly support businesses to show the public that the program generates benefits.

Obviously I would like to address other aspects, but I will close by reminding you that seasonal agricultural workers are important to the agriculture industry. It is those workers who enable it to expand. Canada's social policies leave it with some gaps in measures to support hiring seasonal agricultural workers and ensuring their loyalty to businesses.

[The Vice-Chair, Bloc, Thierry St-Cyr]

Thank you. You will certainly have an opportunity to expand on your views during the question period.

To start the second round off well, we will go to Ms. Folco. You have six minutes.

[Raymonde Folco, Liberal, Laval—Les Îles, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Welcome. I am very happy to see all three of you here because agricultural workers are something I have been concerned about for several years. I have met with people in the past who wanted to join unions. We know that there have been problems in this regard in the past.

Ms. Varvaressos, what does the UPA think about agricultural workers having the opportunity to unionize while they are in Canada? Mr. Lemieux can answer too, if he likes. I would ask you to answer briefly, because our time is limited.

[Pierre Lemieux]

The Union des producteurs agricoles has not necessarily taken a position; it is neither for nor against unionization for agricultural workers. The normal employer-employee relationship applies...

[Raymonde Folco, Liberal, Laval—Les Îles, QC]

It is up to the employer to decide terms and so on.

[Pierre Lemieux]

There still has to be attention paid to the terms. Certainly we try to offer the workers the best possible terms, whether regarding the workplace or other aspects. We offer our people a lot of training. In any event, or organization does not want to get into a debate about unionizing.

[Raymonde Folco, Liberal, Laval—Les Îles, QC]

Ms. Hanley?

[Dr. Jill Hanley]

We have done interviews with agricultural workers. The fact that their status is temporary and is tied directly to the employer affects the level of confidence they have for taking the risk of trying to unionize. As well, most provinces in Canada set up legal barriers to unionizing, particularly for seasonal agricultural workers. What the employer wants is one thing, but the fact that they are temporary workers prevents them from unionizing freely.

[Raymonde Folco, Liberal, Laval—Les Îles, QC]

Thank you. I know it's a problem and that's why I wanted to raise it.

In relation to agricultural workers, I am very enthusiastic about the recommendation made by Ms. Varvaressos in relation to diversifying the jobs available. You have already diversified outside the horticultural industry, an industry that is in great demand in my riding, Laval—Les Îles. As you know, that is where we have the Route des Fleurs. So you have moved more broadly toward all agricultural workers.

I would just like the other players to be able to take part in the process. We don't need to have multiple layers here, but different people have to be able to act as intermediaries between a worker who is in a foreign country and the employer here in Canada. In other words, if a new business owner wants to get involved in the process, is it entitled to do so or does it have to go through one or two people who then work with the various consulates and embassies?

[Hélène Varvaressos]

That is possible at present, under the Service Canada rules. In fact, there is a kind of fast track. Some horticultural producers have adopted a mechanism—FERME—to facilitate recruiting abroad. In agriculture, the only way to recruit abroad, for example in Mexico, Guatemala and the Caribbean, is to go through a group that has taken on a specialized role as intermediary.

We think this is somewhat unfortunate. Employers would like to do their own recruiting, but there is no information available about where to go, the people to talk to or groups that are credible. As well, people wonder whether work visas for Canada are going to be issued once they are here.

[Raymonde Folco, Liberal, Laval—Les Îles, QC]

Any monopoly is dangerous, in my view, and that includes government monopolies.

On the question of working conditions, I have heard absolutely horrible stories in Quebec. People I have met have described situations that are close to slavery.

Ms. Varvaressos, has the UPA board of directors taken measures in this regard? Do you have rules? When it comes to working conditions, I am not talking just about how these people are isolated, but also about how they are treated and the wages they are offered. Are they entitled to make phone calls, how many people are there per bedroom, and so on?

[Hélène Varvaressos]

In fact, the UPA has been working on this issue for 20 years, together with its partner organizations. Guidelines have been established. The UPA, which is one of the partners, in fact proposed at the outset that housing standards be put in place.

As well, the farm employment centres help producers in the regions determine what working conditions will facilitate the settlement of foreign temporary workers in the present circumstances. Consulates and governments are also involved.

[Raymonde Folco, Liberal, Laval—Les Îles, QC]

To what extent are these people...