All right, they are workers.
Evidence of meeting #31 for Citizenship and Immigration in the 39th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was quebec.
Evidence of meeting #31 for Citizenship and Immigration in the 39th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was quebec.
1:45 p.m.
Conservative
1:45 p.m.
Research Associate, Canada Research Chair on International Law of Migration, University of Montreal, As an Individual
That number never changed between 1997 and 2007. We bring in 50,000 workers, who are selected for their qualifications. We bring in three times as many each year on temporary status.
1:45 p.m.
Conservative
Steven Blaney Conservative Lévis—Bellechasse, QC
I'm going to ask a question that will be of interest to Ms. Folco.
In 2002, we amended the Immigration and Refugee Protection Regulations. Could some of these points be addressed in a legislative revision?
1:45 p.m.
Research Associate, Canada Research Chair on International Law of Migration, University of Montreal, As an Individual
In fact, there is one—
1:45 p.m.
Conservative
1:45 p.m.
Research Associate, Canada Research Chair on International Law of Migration, University of Montreal, As an Individual
Some sociologists and anthropologists have been trying to document the abuses for 50 years. It never really worked. However, there is now a critical mass of abuses. That is why the journalists and unions are getting involved. The NGOs are also beginning to take an interest in the issue. We're talking about individuals who are isolated in houses and in the fields. Consequently, they are socially isolated, and the abuses are hard to see and document.
I'll be honest with you. The act contains one element that, based on the slavery convention, seems unconstitutional. It is the regulatory obligation for domestic workers to reside at the employer's home. That's a parliamentary issue. However, all the rest of it comes under government administrative directives, which are not monitored to a great degree, even by the media.
CIC will ultimately do something, but, in forgetting that the province won't... A super combination of administrative restrictions limits the rights of these persons. It's the combination of those restrictions that's unconstitutional.
1:45 p.m.
Conservative
Steven Blaney Conservative Lévis—Bellechasse, QC
You say that the obligation for domestic workers to reside at the employer's home is a major irritant.
1:45 p.m.
Research Associate, Canada Research Chair on International Law of Migration, University of Montreal, As an Individual
According to the slavery convention, that obligation places these persons in a situation equivalent to slavery.
1:45 p.m.
Conservative
Steven Blaney Conservative Lévis—Bellechasse, QC
Of the five situations you described, is this the most critical?
1:45 p.m.
Research Associate, Canada Research Chair on International Law of Migration, University of Montreal, As an Individual
The workers recruited under the Live-in Caregiver Program and the Seasonal Agricultural Worker Program are also required to live at the homes of their employers. In Canada, domestic workers without permits who work for foreign employers are also required to live with those employers. These workers will automatically have servile status equivalent to slavery, whereas, for unskilled workers, that will depend on the contract. The restriction is not necessarily administrative in nature, but rather contractual. However, it is validated in administrative terms.
1:45 p.m.
Conservative
1:45 p.m.
Conservative
1:45 p.m.
Liberal
Raymonde Folco Liberal Laval—Les Îles, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
I'm going to give the first minute to my colleague, who is good with figures. Perhaps he can put a little order in all this.
1:45 p.m.
Liberal
Andrew Telegdi Liberal Kitchener—Waterloo, ON
Merci beaucoup, madame Folco.
As a point of information, I want to point out the latest statistics, that there's something like 428,000 people who came in--indeed, my colleague Mr. Blaney is correct--but out of that, only 251,000 were actually landed. The other ones are students and temporary foreign workers.
The numbers of temporary foreign workers are on the rise, and that is what's so very frightening about what's happening right now. Is that the way we're going to make it, or are we going to do it by bringing in people as immigrants?
Thank you.
1:50 p.m.
Liberal
Raymonde Folco Liberal Laval—Les Îles, QC
I'm going to continue in the same vein as my colleague, since the question I wanted to ask first concerned the open permit and the closed permit.
Ms. Depatie-Pelletier, I must admit to you that I found your presentation very interesting, because, in it, I heard a point of view that I have never heard before. And I've been interested in immigration for a long time.
Would it be possible—if you can't do so immediately, perhaps you could do it at another time—to let us know how many persons, in the past year or past five years, have obtained what you call open permits, compared to those who have obtained closed permits, and in what employment categories?
I find this extremely interesting. We in Canada have always boasted, at least in the past 40 years, that we have an immigration policy that supposedly did not take into account country of origin, religion, and so on, whereas we know very well that's not entirely the case.
The example you give shows precisely that that is not entirely the case, and I'd like to take a closer look at that aspect.
Furthermore, with regard to temporary workers, I'm pleased that my colleague Andrew Telegdi gave that figure. We're trying to tell the public that the government considers immigration figures as overall figures. All right, we can very well do that, but it is important to see, in that overall figure, how many individuals are entitled to stay in Canada, and thus who are really immigrants, and how many are here for a limited period of time, either because they haven't yet been accepted as refugees, or because they are different types of temporary workers. We really have to make the distinction.
Canada's policy, the aim of which is to go and quickly select qualified workers in a very specific way, wouldn't be bad if it were accompanied by a number of actions.
First, when these people arrive in Canada, is there really a job for them and are they entitled to get that job? Often there are jobs, but Company X doesn't let them get them. The connection with what happens once they have crossed the Atlantic or the Pacific is important.
Second, it seems that this is a policy that looks at Canada's demographic and economic future through glasses that only show the short term. I believe that the best immigration policy Canada has had was the one under which we let people come into the country with their families within a short period of time. I'm thinking of the old waves of immigration that came from Italy, Greece and so on in the 1950s and 1960s. Those people, because they were already with their families, were able to settle immediately, and their children went to school. All that made these people Canadians.
Third, I know that it isn't very popular to say this, but, last year, I organized an evening event in Ottawa to commemorate the 15th anniversary of the first arrival of domestic workers from the Caribbean, that is to say from Barbados and Jamaica. You can say bad things about that program, but you can say good things about it as well. The program helped show Canadians that the presence of people of colour in Canada perhaps wasn't a bad thing, that those people were like everyone else, that those women had the right to settle and to bring in their families and so on.
So that opened the immigration doors to what we now call people of colour. There are positive aspects to that kind of program.
I would like to hear your comments.
1:50 p.m.
Research Associate, Canada Research Chair on International Law of Migration, University of Montreal, As an Individual
You touched on a lot of aspects, including the matter of the arrival of the women from the Caribbean, then of Caribbean men a little later for agriculture. At the time, Canada opened its doors to black immigration under pressure from the United Kingdom, to set an example for other Commonwealth countries so that we would accept more people from those countries, from the Caribbean. What I mean is that this was supposed to be a major anti-racist step. According to the Charter, however, we now treat them differently from whites. That's where there is still progress to be made. However, I entirely agree with you that that was an enormous step toward openness at the time and that it nevertheless gave rise to migration from racialized countries, as they say.
There are a number of studies, in particular a study by Statistics Canada, which explains that highly skilled immigrants who have recently arrived in Canada are now doing less and less well in entering the labour market. It must be understood that, in the past 10 years, there has also been exponential development in the recruitment of employers through the temporary program. It think that's related. I recently saw a presentation that explained that the employers aren't there, that they aren't very available when it comes to job entry programs for these immigrants who arrive in Canada. What must be understood is that, for the employers, it's much more advantageous to bring in people through the temporary program. Where they have servile status, we can understand why that might be interesting for an employer, but apart from that, things go much more quickly. That was given priority by the government over permanent immigration. In addition, if an employer wants to sponsor workers for permanent residence, that's extremely complicated. It's much more complicated than to do it for a temporary worker. That means that Canada's immigration system doesn't at all recognize labour market needs, if you will.
1:55 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Norman Doyle
I have to go to Mr. Carrier for the last five or six minutes.
Go ahead.
1:55 p.m.
Bloc
Robert Carrier Bloc Alfred-Pellan, QC
Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.
Good afternoon, Ms. Depatie-Pelletier. You paint a different picture following the testimony of many witnesses received to date. I'm surprised. This is the first time I've heard that our legal practices may be similar to slavery. This is the first time I've heard that statement. A number of groups have definitely criticized the fact that temporary workers were exploited and victims of abuse. That was denounced on a number of occasions, except that here we have the term “slavery” in reference to a UN convention. That seems to me to be more serious.
1:55 p.m.
Research Associate, Canada Research Chair on International Law of Migration, University of Montreal, As an Individual
On the one hand, there's all the documentation on abuses, which, I would say, occur increasingly, among other things, because there are now 20,000 domestic workers in Canada, compared to a few thousand at the time. The number of agricultural workers has also grown exponentially. There too the abuses are increasingly known. What is interesting with regard to the convention on practices similar to slavery is that that simply gives us an explanation. In fact, what the UN convention did was to sound the alarm to say that, when there is a certain type of legal framework, it's the equivalent of a condition of slavery. That ultimately explains why there have been so many abuses in the past 50 years.
All I'm saying is that five of our programs meet the convention definition. It would be quite simple to make it so they don't violate the convention by giving the workers either the right to immigrate from the moment they arrive or a work permit enabling them to change employers: one or the other.
1:55 p.m.
Bloc
Robert Carrier Bloc Alfred-Pellan, QC
I'm going to ask another question since the time is going by quickly.
Attention has often been drawn to an inconsistency between the two levels of government regarding the working conditions of temporary workers. Some interested parties at the provincial level say that the federal government should handle that since it's a federal program. At the federal level, they respond that labour standards are controlled by the provinces.
Is the situation we're currently experiencing, which wasn't necessarily desired, somewhat a consequence of this kind of legal void between the two levels of government? Could that void be reduced so as to correct the situation through a collaborative effort, no doubt a much greater one, between the government that issues a work permit and the one that receives those workers and undertakes to enforce labour standards respecting them?
2 p.m.
Research Associate, Canada Research Chair on International Law of Migration, University of Montreal, As an Individual
You're entirely right. I'll try to be brief.
Ultimately, for tens of years now, the federal government's official excuse has been that this matter is a provincial jurisdiction. When asked the question, the provincial immigration departments don't even know what temporary workers are.
2 p.m.
Research Associate, Canada Research Chair on International Law of Migration, University of Montreal, As an Individual
Exactly. It's new even in Quebec. There has been consultation. I spoke to a number of public servants who weren't even aware that the situation of these workers was different from that of immigrants. And yet Quebec has full jurisdiction in this field. Like all the other provinces, Quebec has always let the federal government handle these matters. Even though the federal government didn't have jurisdiction, it was always in touch with the foreign consulates that were supposed to supervise this area.
However, the foreign consulates were placed in competition with one another. The Guatemaltec government is trying to do... Perhaps we don't have the time to go into those details. Nevertheless, these workers aren't protected. A number of studies show that they would like to unionize. Why? Because agricultural workers, among others, say that their consulate can't protect them. The consulates' objective is to maintain good relations with employers so the latter don't go after Thais, Sir Lankans or Philippinos if they're not nice.
In conclusion, the federal government said that it left all that to the employers, if not to the consulates and the provinces.
2 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Norman Doyle
We'll give Mr. Carrier one last question, and then we have to wrap up.