Citizenship and Immigration Committee on April 17th, 2008

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

That's right, and with no pay at all. You're to be commended. I've said it on so many occasions. Your commitment to refugees and people in trouble is second to none. I know that to be a fact.

Now, can I go to people who might have some questions?

Madam Folco.

[Raymonde Folco, Liberal, Laval—Les Îles, QC]

I think my colleague will want to--

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

Mr. Telegdi.

[Andrew Telegdi, Liberal, Kitchener—Waterloo, ON]

Thank you very much.

I want to say that “Power” is an appropriate name for electrical workers. I really thank you for bringing up the U.S. situation, because we have a free trade agreement and we know that the standards are very similar on both sides of the border, plus we have international unions going across the border. I think it's a very good suggestion you made, and we should definitely bear it in mind, because it goes right along with the free trade agreement with the Americans. So I appreciate it.

I also want to say that I really appreciate the unions, the construction unions in particular, coming forward and making presentations right across the country, because I know how hard you've been trying as organizations to fight the underground economy.

In that regard, we should also be dealing with our undocumented workers, or, as they are called, “precarious status people”, because when you say “undocumented”, it sounds like people coming across the Mexican border into the U.S. We were reminded in Toronto by a professor from York University that, really, most of the undocumented people in the country now came in legally at one point in time as temporary workers, or whatever. We gave them clearance to come in.

It seems to me that we should be making efforts to regularize them. The previous government was going to do that. The bureaucrats didn't like it. Unfortunately, the government changed before that could happen. A new government came in, and the new ministers were quickly talked into not regularizing the undocumented workers; so they're spending $22 million a year going around trying to kick them out of the country. It's really, really counter-productive. We should be using that money for settlement and assisting people to settle, especially since we created the undocumented class. In a large way, what drove the numbers was the change in the points system, which all of a sudden said to the tradespeople, “You can't come in, we don't want you. We want somebody with a university education. We want you to speak the language. We don't want you.”

I know that when we came to Canada in 1957, at the time of the Hungarian revolution.... Last year was the 50th anniversary of my arrival to Canada, so I met with the people we stayed with, the Hay family. We had a reunion. We have been friends ever since, and it was a wonderful experience. It certainly bound our families together in a way that will last our lifetimes—and for that, I really, really thank you for what you're doing.

You should be getting some kind of support from government for doing it, for helping with settlement, because I know there are other costs that come up, and one should not have to have a bake sale every time there's an emergency. With support, you could do better planning. So let me just say I appreciate what you're doing.

I love the Atlantic, but as I said to the chair, the one thing I miss is seeing the fair number of visible minorities in my community. When there, I can go around my block and touch every continent, and the richness it gives is really amazing. That's one thing in the Maritimes, where the numbers are not quite there. But it's an incredible richness I see in our community in the Waterloo region, and of course in Toronto and Vancouver. It's a real positive, because all of a sudden, you don't have to travel around the world to appreciate the cuisine and the people and the culture. That's not to say you don't want to travel, but it's really nice to say, all of a sudden, I'm living in a global village. I think we're a model, in that sense, to the rest of the world about how you can get people from all over coming together with different beliefs and faiths and actually building a pretty prosperous country.

So I thank you for the work you do.

I would like to have a comment from all of you on the undocumented workers, as to whether or not we should go to regularization and be more “appropriate” in spending $22 million to throw them out of the country. That's number one.

Number two, I would ask you to comment on what I said about having better cooperation with the labour markets to the south of us, particularly in the trades, where we have the same kind of standard, recognizing that tradespeople are going to travel a lot.

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

I think Barbara and Mike wanted to have a word on that.

Barbara, do you want to lead off? Then I'll go over to Mike.

[Barbara Burnaby]

Thank you, sir, for those very thoughtful comments.

I've got a story a bit like Donna's. I started teaching English as a second language in Toronto in the late 1960s. At that time, it was the manpower program. Do you remember the manpower program? At that time, we still hadn't gotten the new immigration act. So we would get students in our classes, they'd sort of introduce themselves, and we'd ask them a bit about where they came from and how they came into the country.

If they said they were here on a tourist visa or something like that, we'd say, “You should probably go down to the immigration office and get landed immigrant status, because you might want it later on.” They would, and they'd come back the next day with landed immigrant status.

We've had only my working lifetime of the changes in immigration. What I want to say—and this has to do with immigration and the rules that are around it that Donna has been struggling with for so long, and also the kinds of settlement things that we've been talking about—is that there's no point in putting rules in place if we can't humanely enforce them.

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

That's a good point.

Mike.

[Michael Power]

Yes, the undocumented worker situation is really not an issue where we live in Newfoundland, or on the east coast for that matter. We see that as kind of regionalized to cities like Toronto or Vancouver or places like that. There's obviously not a lot of undocumented workers running around in any numbers anywhere else, other than these cities. That's the reason we've really never addressed that from a construction perspective. They're just not there. These people don't exist.

Now if you ask whether they could be here in the future, well, we don't know that. There's a bit of an issue here in the non-union sector where they can't hire our workers. We have 500 electricians unemployed at the hall. Their wages and their collective agreement bring them up to $35 or $40 an hour, total package. Well, a non-union contractor is looking for $15-an-hour people or $12-an-hour people. There are none of those $12 or $15 people out there right now. If they were out there--those who used to do that work--they've gone to Alberta to do that work anyway, where they can make the $40. So that kind of thing is not there.

We've really never dealt with this undocumented thing that much. Maybe it's in the bigger centres like Toronto and places like that. To say whether it should be legalized or shouldn't, I'd have to do some more research into that, to get a better handle on the situation. I read it as people coming into Toronto to do drywall taping in homes and apartment buildings and things like that. So I don't really see it as a major issue in the construction industry down here.

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

Mr. St-Cyr, and then Mr. Komarnicki, and I'll go back to Madam Folco.

Go ahead, Mr. St-Cyr.

[Thierry St-Cyr, Bloc, Jeanne-Le Ber, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you for being at this last meeting as part of our cross-Canada consultations.

During these consultations, we've talked a lot about the situation of temporary foreign workers and the consequences of that situation. We've addressed the problem at more than one level. On the one hand, we've gone so far as to question the program's relevance and effects on the labour market. We've talked about how these workers were treated. On the other hand, we've taken a more detailed look at the major problems with the present program, obviously for the eventual purpose of making recommendations.

To talk about the program in a more overall rather than detailed way, I'll tell you about an irritant that we've systematically been told about, the fact that the temporary foreign workers' visas are closed, that workers are assigned to a single employer. That situation gives the employer a disproportionate advantage in a relationship of power. Here we're talking about the possibility of blackmail, and thus abuse, in view of the fact that the simple risk of losing the right to work in Canada can induce a worker to accept any working conditions. Quite early on, it seemed clear to me that we had to put an end to that situation. The visa should be open and temporary foreign workers should be able to choose their employers, somewhat as Canadians do.

That said, a certain number of restrictions will have to be set, to ensure, for example, that individuals recruited to offset a labour shortage in a given employment field remain in that field if they change employers. We'll also have to ensure that the question of the province of residence is respected in order to prevent individuals recruited by certain provinces from all leaving for Alberta, for example.

The last point that has come out of these cross-Canada consultations is the fact that, to bring a temporary foreign worker into the country, an employer has to pay for that worker's return ticket, as well as recruitment fees. Employers have pointed out that, if employees could change employers as they wished, without restrictions, once they arrive in Canada, certain employers recruiting temporary workers could lose money relative to other employers who wouldn't invest in recruitment.

We could consider a system in which employees would be free to change jobs in order to improve their working conditions. On the other hand, the new employers of those workers would have to compensate the first employers for initial costs incurred. I've tested that idea across Canada, and I didn't want to forget Newfoundland.

In your opinion, without considering the program in general, could that kind of change improve matters?

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

Mr. Rivera, go ahead, sir.

[Jose Rivera, Coalition on Richer Diversity]

Thank you very much.

As Donna already mentioned, I'm originally from Colombia. I've been here in Canada, particularly in Newfoundland, for six years and 22 days. I don't want to move to Alberta. I want to stay in Newfoundland and see my family grow.

First and foremost, I would like to thank Canada for the opportunity to be alive. If it wasn't for humanitarian and compassionate grounds, my family and I would have been dead six years ago, as many of my Colombian friends are. Thank you again, Canada, for the opportunity to be here.

I was accepted by Donna five years ago when I came to her office to ask for some help, to help my family to reunite. It was an unsuccessful effort. We couldn't do it because of the regulations and the changing of the immigration act in 2002 and so on. She decided to appoint me as a member of the board, so here I am trying to help as much as I can.

We, at the Refugee and Immigration Advisory Council and the Coalition on Richer Diversity, don't understand how this wonderful government of ours--and now I'm a citizen of Canada as well--spends so much time and effort looking outside for things when they are here in Canada. When my Colombian friends come to Newfoundland and Labrador, the first thing I say is, don't go away, this is a wonderful province, full of richness, full of opportunity. But you already said that, Mr. Komarnicki. We cannot retain people from abroad when we are losing our own Newfoundlanders.

When we started the Coalition on Richer Diversity, we were talking about retention, and the first question was, how do you intend to retain immigrants if the local people are going away?

[Thierry St-Cyr, Bloc, Jeanne-Le Ber, QC]

Mr. Rivera, I see you're talking about the general state of the program. We've talked a lot about that in this committee. I made a more technical proposal concerning the current program. If the committee decided to accept it, absolutely essential changes would have to be made, I believe. I wanted to hear your comments on that point.

I see that your microphone is on, Mr. Power. Did you want to make a comment or a suggestion?

[Michael Power]

On the issue the member of the panel raised with respect to temporary foreign workers, I gave the example in the presentation I made, in my opening statement, about the availability of workers just across our borders, living side by side with us.

Mr. Telegdi made the point that we have a free trade agreement with the United States. If we can get visas for these people, there's no cost to employers to bring these people in. They come in through a union hiring hall. They can go to work and they can fill these jobs. There are quite a few workers available on the American side of the border. That's because construction peaks are up and down. The American construction industry is down a bit, except if you go to California and Arizona. Maybe there are booms there, or in places like that, but in a lot of the midwest and central United States there are no big booms going on in the construction industry.

That's one area we can certainly look at with respect to temporary workers. The other thing is—and you say it's a cost, if you have these open visas versus closed visas and that sort of thing—I put into my brief that you should look at some kind of labour force work plan. I think that's something we need to look at, but I'm not saying the onus is on the federal government to do it. I'm saying they should do it in consultation with all stakeholders, everybody who's involved, in all industries, and set up sectors and go out and deal with that. But I'm speaking specifically from a construction perspective.

We have a lot of people in Canada who, if we had the right strategy and the right master work plan in place for this country, and if everybody participated in it.... There are many people who lose jobs in this country through restructuring, relocation, and everything. Right here in this province, there were 450 tradespeople, in the last year or year and a half or so, put out of work when they closed the paper mill—fairly highly skilled people. Where do you think they went? They're used to making good money. They came to the union halls to see whether they could get work. That's the first place they came.

These are areas that I think we have to look at in the long-term scheme of things.

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

Okay.

Mr. Komarnicki.

[Ed Komarnicki, Conservative, Souris—Moose Mountain, SK]

Thank you very much for your presentation.

It's certainly a pleasure to be in your province. I want you to know that we appreciate some of the volunteer work that goes on behind bringing newcomers to Canada, and refugees, and so on. Without you the system wouldn't be able to come close to what it's achieving presently. So we do want you to know we appreciate that. There's always room for improvement, so we do want to hear what you have to say. And to the extent we can, we should.

With respect to settlement funding and integration funding, I know we have in our budgets allocated $1.4 billion across the country to go to settlement agencies. I appreciate that you mentioned some difficulties with ISAP funding, and others, so absolutely we need to look into that and work through Citizenship and Immigration Canada to see what is available. Funding has been frozen for over a decade, and even though we want to bring in more newcomers and take more people in, we have to remember there needs to be the infrastructure there to help people succeed, and that includes English language provisions, counselling. When newcomers come in, simple tasks like banking, finding a place to stay, all those kinds of things we maybe take for granted, are necessary and important. When you come to a new culture, a new country, that even of itself can be challenging.

Certainly you're the front line in the face of the country, and we appreciate your efforts. I know it was with that in mind that you've allocated significant funds. Across the country, how they filter it down ultimately to the many organizations is another matter, and you can certainly pursue that.

It's good to hear from Mr. Power that we are dealing with a kind of moving bus situation. Some sectors or regions are doing well; others aren't. When one concludes here, another one starts there, so labour mobility is important. I know we've heard from other witnesses that we should try to make that more accommodating with some tax incentives and so on. So we do hear that. And I also hear the fact that consultation with the stakeholders and the parties involved is important to try to have a master strategic plan to take advantage of the people we have or to use the benefits of the people we have available in Canada--the young people, aboriginals, and other groups that are here, and those who have been displaced from their work because of one situation or another. I think we need to concentrate on finding out how to do that, for sure, and make a better effort.

Statistics seem to suggest to us that if you did all of that well, you still would have some shortages in some places. We need to find a way to be smart about it and not to pose impediments in your way. We need to find a route that makes sense and to open up those avenues. It's not always that easy, and I appreciate when you say there's a proven, justified shortage and we need to look elsewhere. I've heard a lot from a lot of the witnesses that if you have the skills and trades coming in, or temporary foreign workers, for instance, there are some base levels that we should set that can be met.

Am I summarizing your thoughts on that, Mr. Power?

I guess Barbara would like to make a comment too.

Maybe Mr. Power can go first.

[Michael Power]

Yes, Mr. Komarnicki, with respect to labour mobility assistance, I direct you to have a look at that in my brief and read that, because it is costly to bring in temporary foreign workers.

What we're trying to do here is to reach out to people who don't want to leave home, because it's a cost to go and find jobs sometimes. If you're in a union, it's a lot easier for you because when you go, you get room and board and allowances that you don't get if you're not in a union. But there's a lot of Canadians who are not in unions. They won't leave the province of Newfoundland. If they can't find an airline ticket to go to Alberta, to go work, if someone doesn't pay their way, well, there's a bit of an issue. So labour mobility assistance might be something that could be worked out.

If you get the stakeholders together, that's another area that you can work on, because employers are saying it's pretty costly to bring in temporary foreign workers. And of course it is. There's a cost attached to that.

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

Barbara.

[Barbara Burnaby]

I think we're talking about two kinds of human resources here. First of all, we're talking about the very public human resources of employable people with appropriate skills to do the kinds of things that are at a high level in our economy.

On the other hand, I think it's really important that we look at the human resources to do the human resource kind of work that's required. Donna and I are retired, Jose is living on welfare, and that's how come we can do the volunteer work that we do. We can't keep doing this forever. We have to have some way of really developing the human resources in the community, in the human services sector and the voluntary sector, in order to be able to do a good job of making this a humane, possible, and attractive place for immigrants both to come and to stay. And until we do some work in that area, it's not going to happen.

[Ed Komarnicki, Conservative, Souris—Moose Mountain, SK]

I appreciate that comment, and we do need to have some kind of infrastructure. It's maybe not a good word, but the foundation for that to happen...some of that takes some money, and we've done that increase, but it takes a while before it filters down to the levels that need it.

With respect to Mr. Power, I appreciate the fact that you have union hiring halls in places outside of Canada. Maybe it could be utilized. It seems to me that in the highly skilled or in the temporary foreign worker area, there is a need for an advocacy group that advocates on behalf of the worker to ensure that some basic rights are represented.

Perhaps your organization or organizations like that are already there on the ground, that have the infrastructure and the ability to do that if it gave you what you needed. Is that an area that you'd like to get into or not?

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

A brief answer, and then I'll go to Madam Folco for five minutes.

[Michael Power]

Yes, there is an area. As a matter of fact, the IBEW just worked a deal with Emera in Nova Scotia, where we sat down with them to bring in linemen from the Philippines, or power line technicians as they call them. So we brought in five on a trial basis, and we've gone back and struck a deal with the employer to bring in twenty more of these people. But they're members of the union. They're going to be trained in-house; they're going to be brought up to Canadian standards. So yes, we're working. If there's no linemen in Nova Scotia and nobody wants to relocate because it's $5 an hour more in Alberta...these companies have to have people to go to work. So that's what we've done. We're working on stuff like that.

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

Thank you.

Madam Folco.

[Raymonde Folco, Liberal, Laval—Les Îles, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I think, Mr. Power and Mr. Dalton, you were here when I made my remarks to the other unions earlier this morning. I'm not going to repeat what I said because I'm short of time and I want to address another problem. But let me say that I think the whole structure of our temporary foreign workers has to be seriously looked at from top to bottom and bottom to top. And that's the recommendation I'm making to this committee.

I'll simply stop there because I think you heard my remarks this morning.

Let me go to Madam Burnaby and Madam Jeffrey.

Is there a bilateral entente between the federal government and the Government of Newfoundland and Labrador regarding the settlement of immigrants?

Let me backtrack. Twenty years ago, Quebec was the first of the provinces to actually have a bilateral agreement with the federal government by which the federal government would give the Province of Quebec so many dollars every year, and then Quebec would use those dollars--seeing that it's Quebec--as they wanted. The point was it would help immigration and it would help what you call “settlement” and what we call “integration”.

Is there such an agreement in Newfoundland and Labrador?

[Barbara Burnaby]

Absolutely not.