Citizenship and Immigration Committee on May 13th, 2008

[Diane Finley, Conservative, Haldimand—Norfolk, ON]

The requirements vary significantly across the country. We want to recognize all those differences and, through our various immigration streams, help those regions get the people they need, but just as importantly, we want to help immigrants who are applying to come here to find the jobs that match their skills so that they can succeed sooner.

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

Thank you.

Go ahead, Mr. Khan.

[Wajid Khan, Conservative, Mississauga—Streetsville, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I will ask three questions, Minister, and I will give you all the time to hear your answers, but before I go there, I would like to quote from the previous Liberal minister of immigration, the Honourable Joe Volpe, who said this:

Gone are the days when Canada could rely on wave after wave of immigrants from familiar European sources

--and later--

Countries design immigration programs to benefit their national interests. Even considering refugee systems, the needs of the individual immigrant is secondary to the country's economic interest. Effective strategies for recruitment, integration and retention, then, can only be measured against the return on investment.

That's self-explanatory, at least to me. It tells me that they've always recognized that the system does not work. It is broken, and things need to be changed.

Minister, why are we in this backlog mess in the first place? What are the specific areas of IRPA that cause these problems and backlogs, and how do they affect Canada's immediate and long-term economic future?

[Diane Finley, Conservative, Haldimand—Norfolk, ON]

Those are very good questions.

The backlog used to be only about 50,000 people, which was turned over about three or four times a year, which was pretty reasonable. Since then, when we took over, it had ballooned to over 800,000. Part of the reason was that in 2002, when IRPA was brought in, there had been a lot of discussion and speculation prior to the bill's passing, which prompted a lot of people to suddenly flood the government with applications to come to Canada because they were afraid of changes to the act.

That flood of applications came in, but IRPA had nothing in it that would allow the government to cope with this flood. It required that every application be processed, and that's simply not pragmatic. You can't just keep pouring them in. We have no control over how many applications we get, and we certainly get more each year than we can possibly process. Frankly, even adding more resources, which we're doing--we could do that until the cows come home and it wouldn't be enough.

It's a fundamentally flawed system that requires us to process applications--duplicate applications, in many cases. We can only process them in the order we receive them, for the most part. It would be like building a hockey team under a requirement to take the first 25 people who applied, even if none of them was a goalie. That's the way the system is set up now.

It doesn't help us meet our economic needs as a country. It doesn't give us the flexibility to respond to changing times. It was actually designed in a time when there were too many people for too few jobs; now we're just the opposite. We don't have the flexibility to help the immigrants succeed by finding them jobs in their fields. It systemically needs changing.

[Wajid Khan, Conservative, Mississauga—Streetsville, ON]

Minister, you've had some criticism that you have arbitrary powers. Am I correct in assuming that's not the case, and that before you issue instructions, you would have to discuss this matter with all sorts of different agencies, provinces, organized labour, employers, and others? Even after your instructions are issued, wouldn't they have to go for cabinet approval?

[Diane Finley, Conservative, Haldimand—Norfolk, ON]

You're absolutely right. In designing this new mechanism, we've ensured that there are checks and balances on the minister.

First of all, all the instructions must comply with the charter. That's the law. We intend to honour the law.

Second, consultations will be required with the provinces, with the territories, with industry, and with other government departments that have labour information, for example.

Finally, before they come into force, all the instructions will have to receive cabinet approval. As well, for transparency, we'll be publishing them in the Canada Gazette and reporting back to Parliament in our annual report to Parliament, because we want to make sure the minister cannot act on a whim and that a number of perspectives are brought to bear on these instructions, because they are so very important and because we believe so much in accountability.

[Wajid Khan, Conservative, Mississauga—Streetsville, ON]

How much time do I have, Mr. Chair?

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

You have 30 seconds.

[Wajid Khan, Conservative, Mississauga—Streetsville, ON]

Very quickly, Minister, will Bill C-50 have any impact on family reunification and refugee applicants?

[Diane Finley, Conservative, Haldimand—Norfolk, ON]

Absolutely not. As I mentioned in my opening remarks, this bill does not touch at all upon refugees, humanitarian and compassionate applications from within the country on the PNP program, or even on the Canada–Quebec accord.

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

Thank you.

Mr. Bevilacqua.

[Maurizio Bevilacqua, Liberal, Vaughan, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.

Minister, I want to thank you for your presentation here in our committee.

I want to say in a nutshell that I have a very big problem with this bill. I'll give you an example. You say in your speech that there are some who are suggesting that this legislation will put too much power in the hands of the minister. The vast majority of the people who appeared in front of this committee believe that's indeed the case. There are not some people; there are many, many people.

The problem you have had right from the beginning is that in your communication you stated that this bill was in fact going to be implemented to deal with the backlog. The reality is--and it's a reality that has been confirmed by many people who have appeared in front of this committee--that your changes will not deal with the backlog. That's number one.

Number two, the manner and form in which you acted as a minister was not becoming of an individual who respects the parliamentary tradition here, or the process, with all due respect. There was no consultation. We had to literally beg that the committee actually study the contents of Bill C-50, as it deals with immigration. That should have been something you should have offered as a minister.

As well, there was a major concern about transparency, accountability, and the lack of resources that exist, and there is nobody who has said these reforms will in fact fix the immigration system. And you have not helped the debate. You have not helped the debate for many, many reasons, and one of them is that you've not been telling the truth all the time.

I'll give you an example. When it came to the issue related to the number—

[Wajid Khan, Conservative, Mississauga—Streetsville, ON]

I have a point of order, Mr. Chair.

[Maurizio Bevilacqua, Liberal, Vaughan, ON]

There will be facts.

[Wajid Khan, Conservative, Mississauga—Streetsville, ON]

Telling the minister she lied, that she did not tell the truth, is an insinuation that I object to.

[Maurizio Bevilacqua, Liberal, Vaughan, ON]

Mr. Khan, just follow me for a second.

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

It is considered unparliamentary language, not a point of order.

Mr. Bevilacqua, continue. It's unparliamentary language.

[Maurizio Bevilacqua, Liberal, Vaughan, ON]

Would you agree with your own officials, who appeared in front of the finance committee, who said that neither temporary foreign workers nor foreign students are new Canadians on the day they arrive in Canada?

[Diane Finley, Conservative, Haldimand—Norfolk, ON]

They're not new Canadians; they're newcomers.

[Maurizio Bevilacqua, Liberal, Vaughan, ON]

You said during question period, on March 14—

[Diane Finley, Conservative, Haldimand—Norfolk, ON]

And I corrected that, on the record.

[Maurizio Bevilacqua, Liberal, Vaughan, ON]

... this Conservative government welcomed more immigrants to Canada than has been done in almost 100 years.

Or when, on April 4, 2008, you said:

That is why we were able to welcome 430,000 new Canadians last year to this country, the highest in over 100 years.

[Diane Finley, Conservative, Haldimand—Norfolk, ON]

And I corrected that on the record immediately afterwards.

[Maurizio Bevilacqua, Liberal, Vaughan, ON]

That's misinformation.

[Diane Finley, Conservative, Haldimand—Norfolk, ON]

No, I corrected it.