Citizenship and Immigration Committee on May 13th, 2008

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake, MB]

We've established, then, that there's no way we can do that discriminatory policy, so now it comes down to how we look at these instructions to have the flexibility, and that's the whole reason we're going with ministerial instruction: to have the flexibility to meet the needs—of Canadians, of Canadian businesses, of family reunification, as well as of those of the immigrant community who want to come to Canada.

Can you, then, talk about how the flexibility ties in with the instructions, rather than having something set in stone and going on in perpetuity, which we have right now and which hasn't served Canada well?

[Richard Fadden]

Mr. Chairman, the basic system has us treating every file we receive, and fundamentally treating it in the order we receive it. There is no direct connection on the economic side with any labour market demand in Canada. One of the things the instructions will allow the minister to do is tell the department, after consultation with the provinces, the private sector, and civil society, that there are a variety of occupational groups who deserve priority treatment.

At the same time, the instructions are phrased broadly enough that the minister can also provide for program priorities. I think she has indicated on one or two occasions that she would probably use this to indicate to the department that we'd have to continue to give priority to provincial nominee programs, the Canada-Quebec accord, and the family unification programs.

Fundamentally, though, in developing the instructions, the minister is going to have to have regard to the operating principles that guide everything that happens in IRPA, and there are three objectives: there's an economic one, there's a family reunification one, and there's a humanitarian one. I have not seen any indication that the government is not going to do this, but if they did not do it, there are plenty of recourses to force the government to rethink this.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake, MB]

So we're going to make sure we respect the three fundamental goals. The instructions are being issued. But what consultation process are we looking at then in making sure the community at large, civil society here in Canada, is being listened to and that we're meeting the labour market needs we have?

[Richard Fadden]

Mr. Chairman, first I should say that we have not dotted every “i” and crossed every “t”. Parliament hasn't passed this legislation yet, so I'm giving you a preliminary indication.

First of all, we want to get, at a national level, the views of the Bank of Canada and HRSD on the national labour market. The bill requires the minister to consult with the provinces, so we're going to develop a process whereby we will ask all of the provinces to try to articulate for us, to the extent they can, what their labour market is like. At the same time, we'll talk with representatives of the private sector and with representatives of civil society.

We haven't, as I said a moment ago, sorted out exactly how we're going to do it. We're hoping we can do it on either a sectoral or a regional basis, to make it as efficient as we can while still providing everybody with an opportunity to be heard.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake, MB]

So the criticisms we've heard earlier about this committee not being involved, although the committee has the power at any point in time to study any issue they feel is important and develop policy to recommend back to the House of Commons and to the government.... We're going to have the consultations as required, I guess, as we move forward in meeting the needs we have here in Canada.

Could you just clarify for us, though, how the concurrent processing will proceed with respect to applications processed under instructions and applications from the existing backlog?

[Richard Fadden]

The intention, as I was saying in reply to an earlier question, is that once the instructions come into force, the existing backlog is going to be frozen. The bill provides that we have to deal with people who are in the existing backlog under the existing rules, so by and large, we're going to go “first in, first out”, and our current thinking is that we will allocate something like 70% of our operational resources to eating away at the backlog.

At the same time, we'll be writing, on a pilot basis, to some 50,000 of the older files asking whether they want to be sustained. As I told Ms. Chow, we would also be mining the files in order to determine whether any of them can be referred to the provinces. So we will keep eating away at the backlog. The key there, though, is that it's frozen. We're not going to be able to add to it.

On the working inventory file, where we hope to allocate something on the order of 30% of our ongoing resources, the ministerial instructions will be used to enable us to pick and choose those that reflect their priorities, and the files that don't meet those priorities will be returned to the individuals at the end of a processing period; it may be a year or it may be a year and a half.

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

Thank you, Mr. Fadden.

That completes the seven minutes. We'll go to five-minute rounds. We have until about 6:15, and then we're going to break for about a 15-minute supper break and bring on our witnesses after that.

Mr. Karygiannis.

[Jim Karygiannis, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

Mr. Fadden, in the time this minister has been the minister, and you being the deputy minister, how many times would you say the minister has not followed your direction, your suggestions?

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

I am not going to allow that question. The rules are clear and I have them in front of me. I don't want to eat into people's time by reading those rules out, but I'll read them if necessary.

[Jim Karygiannis, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

Allow the witness to answer if he wants to.

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

No, I can't--

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake, MB]

On a point of order, Mr. Chair, in chapter 20 of Marleau and Montpetit, under the role of the committee--

[Jim Karygiannis, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

Stop the clock, Mr. Chair.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake, MB]

--it is very specific that civil servants are not required to answer policy questions as they relate to the government.

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

Order. I have it in front of me.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake, MB]

They are usually excused from those types of policy issues.

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

Yes, I have it here in Marleau and Montpetit, but I don't want to go into reading all of this.

Mr. Fadden, you don't have to answer that question.

Move on, Mr. Karygiannis.

[Jim Karygiannis, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

Do you want to stop the clock, Mr. Chair?

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

There will be no clock stopping. Go ahead.

[Jim Karygiannis, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

Well, we're going to get a lot of points of order here.

Mr. Fadden, you were asked, as well as the minister, to provide figures and facts for us of what the expenses were to promote Bill C-50, travel of different ministers, and I was wondering.... You did get that e-mail, I'm sure. Do you have those facts and figures?

[Richard Fadden]

Mr. Chairman, the aggregate figures were the ones the minister quoted when you were asking questions earlier. They were $1.1 million.

I do have the figures that relate to the cost we've incurred to undertake the stakeholder and media visits, if those are the ones you are referring to.

[Jim Karygiannis, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

Would that include your visit to Toronto when this committee was travelling, where you met with three people from the media? Does that include the Prime Minister's trip to Toronto to point out his facts and figures to the Indian gala dinner?

[Richard Fadden]

No, Mr. Chairman. They only relate to CIC.

[Jim Karygiannis, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

What are the other ministers'...when they travel and they are promoting immigration? Can you not get those numbers?

[Richard Fadden]

No, Mr. Chairman.