Citizenship and Immigration Committee on May 13th, 2008

[Richard Fadden]

Well, Mr. Chairman, I don't know about the honourable member's riding, but we've had discussions, for example, with the hospitality industry. They desperately need people. I've talked to people in that province. But when we ask them where these people are going to stay, it's not always obvious. Some hotels, for example, have accommodation for staff. They can't pay the kinds of salary that are necessary for many of them to find accommodation.

So I take your point that there are circumstances where they can accommodate more people, but across the board I would submit that there are difficulties with simply increasing the number.

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

I'm going to go to Madam Beaumier for five minutes.

I checked around a little earlier, and I don't know if I asked Mr. St-Cyr, but I said we'd break at roughly 6:15, after Madam Beaumier, which would give us a 15-minute break for supper, from 6:15 to 6:30. Then we would bring in our next group of people for another full hour.

Is that general agreement I'm hearing?

Mr. Carrier.

[Robert Carrier, Bloc, Alfred-Pellan, QC]

Mr. Chairman, can I add my name to the list of people who wish to speak?

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

Sure.

[Robert Carrier, Bloc, Alfred-Pellan, QC]

Could I have the floor once more?

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

Okay.

[Robert Carrier, Bloc, Alfred-Pellan, QC]

After Ms. Beaumier?

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

Madam Chow, did you have a comment?

[Olivia Chow, NDP, Trinity—Spadina, ON]

No, but if there's any time left....

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

Then we'll scrap that business of 6:15 and we'll go to 6:30. Is that what you're saying to me? We have to let the food people know. So are we going to go until 6:15, then have supper, and then take our next full hour?

This is not rocket science, folks. Tell me yes or no.

[Some hon. members]

Yes.

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

Okay, yes.

Madam Beaumier.

[Colleen Beaumier, Liberal, Brampton West, ON]

Thank you--

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

Mr. Telegdi.

[Andrew Telegdi, Liberal, Kitchener—Waterloo, ON]

In terms of the next witnesses, there are only two of them, and that should not take a long time. Having the deputy minister here is a good thing, so....

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

But we're not going to get around to you anyway.

[Andrew Telegdi, Liberal, Kitchener—Waterloo, ON]

Maybe we should go to 6:30, because I think it's important.

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

Then we'll go to 6:30. Is that what you want to do? No? Or do you want 6:15? What am I hearing?

[Some hon. members]

6:15.

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

We'll go to 6:15.

Madam Beaumier.

[Colleen Beaumier, Liberal, Brampton West, ON]

Thank you.

Mr. Fadden, when I started out I was a bureaucrat, and I know the majority of the people in the bureaucracy are fine people. I'm going to try not to be aggressive and confrontational, but I'm terribly frustrated with some of the attitudes I see when we, as members of Parliament, deal with the bureaucracy. The attitude is sometimes, at the very best, I guess, pejorative.

I asked Mr. Linklater the other day about racism within the department. I don't have a problem with bureaucrats making decisions--I think you probably have much more experience than we do--in consultation with parliamentarians, as long as you're going in the direction the government wants you to go. However, I think you know that I have dealt with racist attitudes with the east Indian desk. I brought it up in committee when Joe Volpe was the minister, and the then-deputy minister practically called me a liar.

Now we have a lawyer in Hamilton...and I'm sure you're aware of the article about someone who's obviously using government computers and has been on a chat line and made these kinds of comments.

What does the department do to be vigilant about racist attitudes? That's the only thing that really frightens me in all of this. That's the thing that frightens me the most.

I think it's very unfortunate. Yes, we all have our bad days, and I understand that people who work in the bureaucracy have their bad days as well, but when I call, I can't even get hold of a government person in New Delhi to discuss the circumstances in certain cases.

Where is my avenue, as a member of Parliament, to deal with cases where I truly believe there has been a mistake made when I have no person to talk to, I have a button to press? Can you assure me and tell me what we are doing to make sure that these ugly attitudes...? I don't want to be apologizing--I don't want my grandchildren to have to apologize in 70 years--for what we allow to happen here. I don't say this to be confrontational. It is a sincere concern of mine.

[Richard Fadden]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I'm going to take a slightly different tack from my predecessor, because I think any institution that has 5,000 people and takes 2.5 million decisions a year will occasionally get people who act improperly. I don't think there are very many, but I acknowledge your point.

A case in point is the individual you referred to elliptically in southern Ontario, who I do know about. The person has been sent home without pay. There's a police investigation, and if I have my way and the facts are sustained, I'll fire him. If you bring any other case of that nature to my attention, I'll cause it to be inquired and I'll fire the individual.

We do not want to support racism. It is not acceptable to this department. I don't think there are very many who do act that way, but I acknowledge that in a large number of people you're always bound to get a few rotten eggs. I think we found one.

On the broader issue of to whom you can speak, a number of your colleagues around the table have called my office, and in a couple of cases I've reversed decisions by the department. I don't do it all the time. There's a branch in the department called the case management branch run by a gentleman called Stéphane Larue, who I think is very open to talking to people. If you want, I'll tell him that you might call him. I'm not just making this offer to appear to be helpful; I mean it. If you have a particular problem and the department can't help you with a case or two, I'd be glad to talk to you myself.

[Colleen Beaumier, Liberal, Brampton West, ON]

Thank you. I appreciate that very much.

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

Since we're down to 10 seconds, I want to thank Mr. Fadden, Mr. Linklater, and Ms. Lyon for your presence here today. You've given us an awful lot of good information. I'm sure committee members agree. I'm sure it'll find its way into the report as well.

[Jim Karygiannis, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

When will the deputy minister and the department come back to us with the information the minister and everybody else is supposed to supply? Would two weeks be appropriate, or three weeks? How long do they need?