Evidence of meeting #45 for Citizenship and Immigration in the 39th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was changes.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Corinne Pohlmann  Vice-President, National Affairs, Canadian Federation of Independent Business
Jon Garson  Vice-President, Policy Development Branch, British Columbia Chamber of Commerce
Joyce Reynolds  Executive Vice-President, Government Affairs, Canadian Restaurant and Foodservices Association
Elizabeth Lim  Lawyer, Lim Mangalji Law Group, Status Now! - Campaign in Defense of Undocumented Immigrants
Vikram Khurana  Director, Asia Pacific Foundation of Canada
Joseph Ben-Ami  President, Canadian Centre for Policy Studies
Andrea Seepersaud  Executive Director, Inter-Cultural Neighbourhood Social Services
Patrick Hynes  Employment Advocate, Enhanced Language Training Program, Inter-Cultural Neighbourhood Social Services
Pierre Gauthier  Refugee Outreach Committee, St. Joseph's Roman Catholic Church
Shafiq Hudda  Director, Islamic Humanitarian Service

4:45 p.m.

Vikram Khurana Director, Asia Pacific Foundation of Canada

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Chairman, members and associate members of the committee, my name is Vikram Khurana. I'm the CEO of Prudential Consulting Inc. and a member of the board of directors of the Asia Pacific Foundation of Canada. My views expressed to the committee are based on my personal experiences and may not be the official position of the Asia Pacific Foundation of Canada.

I've had experience interacting with the Canadian immigration system on three different occasion. The first occasion was when I first came to the country as an international student. The second was when I applied and interviewed for permanent residence status in Canada and, most significantly, as the vice-president of Leading System Consultants Inc., a company that was in the business of bringing knowledge workers to Canada from 1995 to 2001. This was a period in global history when there was a serious skill shortage in information technology due to the obsolescence of large computer systems and the impending Y2K date change crisis.

4:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Norman Doyle

Can I interrupt for just a moment, sir? Our translators are saying it's a little bit too fast. Maybe you can slow it down a little so they can follow more easily.

Thank you.

4:45 p.m.

Director, Asia Pacific Foundation of Canada

Vikram Khurana

Absolutely.

Since then, I have had the opportunity to help in bettering the foreign worker visitor visa system by participating through my company, and its lawyers, in an industry effort by the Software Human Resources Council in working with CIC and HRSDC. Through these efforts by the industry, a pilot project was created in 1995 that remains in effect today, and has been instrumental in solving the critical shortages in the information technology industry in Canada.

My experience with the immigration system exposed many serious problems with the way Canada handles applicants for entry into Canada, and why the system is in desperate need of a fix today. Here are some of the examples of why the system needs fixing:

There's a backlog of applicants. These applicants have entered the system either directly or through immigration agencies and lawyers. In making the case for immigration, many of the applicants may not qualify. Yet due to the way the system is structured, all applications must be processed on a first-come first-served basis. This puts applicants who are strongly desired by Canada--due to either their skills or economic potential--in the same queue as applicants who have slender chances of making it.

The foreign skilled worker program is another example. A number of efforts have been made to address the needs of employers in Canada and to address skilled and unskilled worker labour shortages through temporary programs. These programs are mostly carried on through interdepartmental cooperation between HRSDC and Immigration Canada, with some involvement from the Canada Border Services Agency. These departments do not necessarily interact the way they should, as an approval from one department does not necessarily mean an approval from another. Also, most of the cases are handled based on precedence, rather than written fixed rules. If these temporary entry programs are to help ease the shortage of labour, they need to be structured differently so as to process workers in a quick and efficient manner, which is not the case presently.

I believe that the system is in urgent need of change, due to the following factors:

There is a global skills shortage, which causes many of the skilled and unskilled workers to be equally desired by many competing countries across the world. Take the United Arab Emirates, where 25,000 people enter the country on a monthly basis, as an example. Or take the case of India, which used to be a source country for many developed nations for skills, and is going through a skills shortage of its own. This trend is expected to continue.

The building of skills shortages will encourage an underground labour market, which is built on undocumented or illegal workers. The United States is a good example of how this problem can take huge dimensions and affect the social structure of a country. The ongoing growth of the immigration backlog threatens the integrity of the system, where applicants are bound to be discouraged by long wait times, and seek alternate destinations, or alternate ways to enter the country, burdening other parts of the system. I believe that the suggested changes are in the right direction, and are the first steps that must come in order to attract and retain good immigrants to Canada, and assist in settlement and prosperity of the immigrant community.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

4:50 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Norman Doyle

Thank you, sir.

Mr. Ben-Ami.

4:50 p.m.

Joseph Ben-Ami President, Canadian Centre for Policy Studies

Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, committee members, not only for the work you're doing here today and your ongoing work, but also for the invitation to come here to speak a little bit about the issue before us and to exchange some ideas and remarks.

My remarks today will be brief, not so much because of the constraints imposed by the rules, but because, quite frankly, in our view we don't find this issue particularly complicated.

We support the changes to the Immigration and Refugee Protection Act proposed in Bill C-50. We believe that the changes are necessary to fix a fundamental flaw in the current legislation and process that in our view undermines Canada's ability to meet its immigration objectives.

What are those objectives? We could talk a lot about being compassionate—and we are a compassionate country. We could talk about humanitarian desires, and these are certainly things that we want to fulfill. But these are not really objectives; they're characteristics.

Some people assert that our primary objective with immigration should be to bring into Canada a number of immigrants equal to approximately 1% of the population each year. We don't agree. I'm not debating the number here; I'm debating whether that should be our primary objective. In our view, immigration is primarily about people, not numbers. It's about assessing the needs of those people and trying to provide for them.

There's a lot of talk about how Canada needs immigration. And again, I don't propose to get into a debate about the validity of that statement itself; it's not the purpose of these hearings. What I would point out is that the very statement that Canada needs immigration is predicated on that belief that we all share, that Canada has needs and that our immigration policy should be meeting those needs.

One of those needs is to fill existing or emerging shortages in Canada's labour market with qualified workers and professionals. Right now, potential immigrants who apply to come to Canada as skilled workers provide information about their education, their work experience, their qualifications, etc., and their applications are assessed based on this and other information. And the application of a candidate is approved, if they have a sufficient number of points.

What's bizarre about all of this is that at no time is consideration given to the employability of the candidate based on the availability of jobs in Canada in his or her area of employment. Instead, he or she goes into the queue and waits, sometimes for years. The family's life is put on hold—sometimes for years. And when they finally get to Canada, if they haven't lost faith already because of the amount of time they've waited, and have gone to another country—which is happening in large numbers, by the way—there are no jobs for them in their area of employment.

We don't think that makes sense. We also don't think it makes sense that the skills and qualifications of successful candidates are not being used to prioritize the order in which successful applicants are processed after approval and are actually brought here to Canada. The result of all of this is that our labour market needs are never really filled.

I want to stress here, by the way, that we're not talking about family reunification. We're just talking about skilled workers; that's all we're talking about here.

In our view, the changes that are being proposed are the minimum necessary to make the skilled worker track fair and functional. They're sensible changes, without which we might as well get rid of this class altogether.

I want to address very briefly some of the objections that have been raised by people over the last little while regarding the fact that powers created by Bill C-50, as it pertains to immigration practices, will reside with the minister. I have to tell you that I'm really a little puzzled by the objections.

Some say that immigration issues shouldn't be politicized. Frankly, I'm not exactly sure what that means. If it means that we shouldn't have a vigorous public debate on the subject, then certainly we disagree. But public policy should ultimately be decided by the public, who have to live with the policy and pay for it as well.

Others are saying that the minister shouldn't have the ability to make the necessary adjustments to selection criteria to reflect changes in the economy or workforce.

Again, we don't share this view. It's difficult enough to get policy changes or adjustments done around this city, in the government, already, without having to add an extra burden of a legislative process every time we want to make small changes to policy that really should be regulatory changes.

I would argue that forcing any particular government--whether it's Conservative or Liberal or NDP or any other political persuasion--to always go through a legislative process doesn't enhance the accountability of the minister or the department. You guys are in a committee. You bring people here all the time to talk about these issues. It doesn't really make any difference whether you're changing things legislatively or not. It's really almost adding a whole new bureaucratic level to the whole process, which we object to in this area, because it's important to be able to respond fairly quickly to changes in economic circumstances and in the workforce.

I have just one other small observation, and then I'll finish. I want to also stress that although we're supportive of these changes, I think I share my colleague's view on the fact that there are really a lot of problems with our immigration system. I would argue that it's probably the most badly broken department in the federal government right now. We're badly in need of a comprehensive, coherent immigration policy. We really don't have that. If I were to go around the table and reverse roles, and I were to ask the question, I'd be willing to bet money right now that nobody here would be able to really say what our immigration policy is. You could point to various small facets of it, but you couldn't really say this is what our immigration policy is, because we really don't have one.

What we would say is that these are very good in the context that they're going to deal with, but I'd be remiss if I didn't take the opportunity to say that I think what we really need is a serious look and a serious examination of our whole immigration department, our process with the idea that we're going to come up with some sort of a coherent, comprehensive policy.

Thank you very much.

4:55 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Norman Doyle

Thank you, sir.

It looks as though we have time for about one round of seven minutes each before we have to go to votes.

Mr. Karygiannis, we'll start with you.

4:55 p.m.

Liberal

Jim Karygiannis Liberal Scarborough—Agincourt, ON

Mr. Khurana, are you here representing yourself or the Asia Pacific Foundation?

4:55 p.m.

Director, Asia Pacific Foundation of Canada

Vikram Khurana

The Asia Pacific Foundation is still researching the issue. We don't have a position yet on which aspect of the bill we support, and so on. Also, we are in the business of providing information so the policy-makers and decision-makers can then make the appropriate—

4:55 p.m.

Liberal

Jim Karygiannis Liberal Scarborough—Agincourt, ON

What do you do, exactly, sir?

4:55 p.m.

Director, Asia Pacific Foundation of Canada

Vikram Khurana

I'm the CEO of Prudential Consulting, an IT consulting company that deals—

4:55 p.m.

Liberal

Jim Karygiannis Liberal Scarborough—Agincourt, ON

Do you bring people into Canada? Do you source people from outside Canada?

4:55 p.m.

Director, Asia Pacific Foundation of Canada

Vikram Khurana

No, I don't, but I do have about six years of experience in doing that for my previous employer, which was Leading System Consultants.

4:55 p.m.

Liberal

Jim Karygiannis Liberal Scarborough—Agincourt, ON

Do you support the changes, as an individual, since you are here as an individual?

4:55 p.m.

Director, Asia Pacific Foundation of Canada

Vikram Khurana

Yes, I do.

4:55 p.m.

Liberal

Jim Karygiannis Liberal Scarborough—Agincourt, ON

Tell me which part of the changes you're supporting. Just give me one. Are you supporting the fact that if you come to Canada and you apply, your parents, if they want to come to Canada, might never get here?

4:55 p.m.

Director, Asia Pacific Foundation of Canada

Vikram Khurana

The part that I support is—

4:55 p.m.

Liberal

Jim Karygiannis Liberal Scarborough—Agincourt, ON

Are you supporting that part, sir?

4:55 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Norman Doyle

Give the witness a chance to answer, please. I assume that when a member asks a question, he's interested in an answer. I think we should give the witness a chance to come up with his answer.

Mr. Khurana.

4:55 p.m.

Director, Asia Pacific Foundation of Canada

Vikram Khurana

The part that I support is that somebody is making the changes to fix the system that otherwise is on the verge of a collapse. There are different aspects of it that I support.

5 p.m.

Liberal

Jim Karygiannis Liberal Scarborough—Agincourt, ON

Mr. Khurana, let's talk about family class. Are you supporting the fact that we're going to shift away from family class?

5 p.m.

Director, Asia Pacific Foundation of Canada

Vikram Khurana

I have not seen any material that would suggest we are shifting away from the family class.

5 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Norman Doyle

Order, please.

Mr. Karygiannis has his time alloted.

5 p.m.

Conservative

Ed Komarnicki Conservative Souris—Moose Mountain, SK

Mr. Karygiannis is misrepresenting what the legislation is saying as if it were fact when it's not, and that's not proper nor is it parlimentarian.

5 p.m.

Liberal

Jim Karygiannis Liberal Scarborough—Agincourt, ON

Are you stopping the clock right there?

5 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Norman Doyle

Yes.