Citizenship and Immigration Committee on Dec. 6th, 2007

[Jeffry A. House]

Yes, well, that's a first step.

But as well, I would like there to be some instruction from this committee or from the Parliament that represents the Canadian people that conscientious objection to the Iraq War is a positive circumstance that suggests that the people who have done this would appropriately become residents of Canada, so that it's not taken against them.

Mr. Karygiannis asked this question before, and I think it's an important one. It used to be, until November 1969, that desertion was held against people who applied from inside Canada. That's what Mr. Trudeau did when he said Canada should be a refuge from militarism, and that element of the law was removed. So it should be removed and reversed when we're now talking about internal applications.

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

Thank you, Madam Faille.

Mr. Atamanenko.

[Alex Atamanenko, NDP, British Columbia Southern Interior, BC]

Thank you.

Colleagues, I'd like to say that I have met a number of these folks, and they all have really gut-wrenching stories.

My question will be quick. In the Ottawa Citizen, Joshua Key says he witnessed U.S. soldiers carrying out beatings, robberies, even fatal shootings against unarmed Iraqi civilians--men, women, and children--when he served in the U.S. Army. He doesn't want to do this anymore; he doesn't want to carry this out. Does that mean it's safe to assume that when he returns, if he were sent back to the U.S.A., he would then go to jail and have a criminal record?

That's my question to Phillip or Jeffry.

[Phillip McDowell]

That is true. If he were to go back, he would have a prosecution, serve a period of time in prison, and then he would have that bad conduct discharge, which is a permanent conviction on your record.

[Alex Atamanenko, NDP, British Columbia Southern Interior, BC]

So it's contrary to what we've been told here by others, that it may be just a simple jail sentence and everything will be fine afterwards?

[Phillip McDowell]

Yes, you have a bad conduct discharge, which is a conviction.

[Alex Atamanenko, NDP, British Columbia Southern Interior, BC]

Okay. Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

Okay.

Four or five minutes go to Mr. Batters, and then I'm going to allow Madam Beaumier to have a question at the end, because somehow we inadvertently missed her hand going up. I apologize for that, so I'm going to give her the last question at the end.

[Dave Batters, Conservative, Palliser, SK]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'll share my time with Mr. Trost.

First of all, I'd like to say to Mr. McDowell—and I know I speak for everyone in this room--we're very thankful that you came back from Iraq safe and sound.

I do have one question for the witnesses, and any one of you can respond.

Do you really think that deserters who come from a prosperous, developed, democratic country that respects human rights, due process, and the rule of law are more deserving of special treatment from our country than the thousands upon thousands of legitimate refugees who we are trying to help, refugees who are living in camps, many in squalor, in danger, in fear for their lives, in fear for their families' lives, facing potential torture—I could go on and on—many of whom have lived in these camps for decades? Are deserters truly more deserving of special rights and privileges?

[Jeffry A. House]

If I could answer that, I think deserters are deserving of assistance. That doesn't mean I think that others aren't also deserving of assistance. Canada is a large country, and if we're talking about 50 or 100 people, I doubt very much whether there is a zero-sum game, where if we bring in Iraqis who are suffering from the effects of the U.S. invasion, therefore American deserters who are also opposed to the invasion.... In my view, it's not a zero-sum game.

What we should be doing is looking at whether it is deserved—as I believe it is—that there be some accommodation made. If it is deserved, that should be the end of the story. We shouldn't look around the world and say, “They're only getting two years in custody, and if they were in the Soviet Union they would be getting 12, so let's not worry about it.” I don't think that's the appropriate way to think about the question.

[Dave Batters, Conservative, Palliser, SK]

I will defer now to Mr. Trost, Mr. Chair.

[Phillip McDowell]

May I comment on this?

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

Very briefly.

[Phillip McDowell]

I personally believe that Canada should do as much as it can to help those people too. In terms of what Mr. Karygiannis was saying about soldiers coming from different wars or soldiers who are from a different country that is also participating in Iraq, I think they deserve the same treatment that I'm trying to get for myself and the others--any other country, just like Mr. Karygiannis is saying.

I do believe it should do as much as it can to help these people, and I would like to think this is one step along the way.

[Dave Batters, Conservative, Palliser, SK]

I'm going to defer to Mr. Trost.

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

Mr. Trost.

[Bradley Trost, Conservative, Saskatoon—Humboldt, SK]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I just want to make a couple comments here in the last two minutes.

I very much appreciate the witnesses' remarks today. I particularly understand where Mr. Janzen is coming from, because some of those 21,000 Mennonites included my Great Grandpa Dyck, a conscientious objector who served in the medical corps of the Russian army, as did my great uncle, Peter Dyck, who served in the medical corps of the Canadian army. He volunteered as a conscientious objector.

So I have very strong feelings about it. But I want to make a couple points here, and maybe the witnesses could respond. While I continue to support the whole concept of conscientious objection, one of the things I always find problematic is when people object to specific wars and not to war overall or war in general. That's not a problem for Mr. Janzen, but I want to put that out.

I did appreciate the gentleman's remarks about pushing for alternative service, because I have absolutely no respect for anyone who volunteered to serve and then, even if they did have a conscientious change, were not willing to provide alternative service. As I said, my Great Uncle Pete volunteered to do body recovery in World War II. He wasn't drafted by the Canadian military; he volunteered, and he took the toughest of tough assignments.

Third, the other thing I appreciate from my Mennonite history is that we Mennonites have always been willing to take the consequences of our religious faith, wherever it was. The Catholics, the Protestants, the Dutch Reformed, the Lutherans, they all killed us for what we stood for—for our objections.

Those three elements are the minimum requirements for conscientious objection that I would respect. But without those elements, I have a hard time accepting where people really come from. The witnesses can comment on that.

I also want to make one last point here.

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

Just one last point.

[Bradley Trost, Conservative, Saskatoon—Humboldt, SK]

How in the world do we deal with the possibility of abuse? People can say they conscientiously object, and they may be very, very sincere about it, but how do we deal with those who are not sincere?

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

It will have to be a brief response, so I can go to Ms. Beaumier.

[Jeffry A. House]

I would simply say that the distinction between the objection to specific wars versus general objection is an important point. However, the reality on the ground may well be a specific war that is just totally unacceptable. To say, well, I'm being asked to kill civilians but I won't object if the United States were invaded and I would still volunteer, to me, that is a coherent theory that makes perfect sense. It's the same thing as the general law of assault: you don't always have to object to assaulting people if you simply don't want to assault people who are not assaulting you.

With respect to how we deal with false cases, that's done simply through winnowing them out, and that's done all the time. It's done all the time only in connection with the question, do you object to all wars? It could also perfectly well be done on the question, do you have a conscientious objection to this specific war?

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

Thank you.

Ms. Beaumier.

[Colleen Beaumier, Liberal, Brampton West, ON]

Thank you.

I have a couple of things to say. First of all, when we listened to the IRB, I knew they were wrong about draft dodgers during the Vietnam War. If they had been right then, we wouldn't have had safe houses and RCMP officers in our parking lots looking to catch draft dodgers as they came from these safe houses after spending a couple of nights there before being rushed off to God only knows where. We didn't know these kids' names and we didn't know where they were going to end up, because it was no different at the time. They weren't allowed to come in as visitors and to apply, with everybody living happily ever after.

The one question I have.... There was nobody more opposed in this country than I was to the war in Iraq; I was Baghdad Beaumier. The Reform Party wanted to know why I didn't stay to be Saddam Hussein's mistress. It was pretty ugly. Well, he didn't ask me! So I have very, very strong feelings about this.

I would like to hear from both of you. We are at war. I don't think our war is any more justified than any other right now; I think there are other ways of dealing with these issues. I want somebody to differentiate between conscientious objectors to the war in Iraq and our soldiers coming home and saying they're conscientious objectors.

How do we deal with that?

[Phillip McDowell]

I would like to comment on that.

There is definitely a difference between the Iraq War and the Afghanistan War. If I had been stopped, lost, and brought back into the military, and they said, you're going to Iraq rather than Afghanistan, I wouldn't have gone wilfully or happily, but I would have gone because I believe that's a justified war--to me. Many people don't, and I respect that.

In terms of what you do when Canadian soldiers come back and they want to refuse to fight in the war on Afghanistan, from my small research, I did find out from talking to people that there is a method in the Canadian Forces that allows you to say, “I'm opposed to this war”, and they can reassign you or transfer you to a different unit. That's my understanding.

[Colleen Beaumier, Liberal, Brampton West, ON]

In Canada?