Citizenship and Immigration Committee on March 10th, 2009

[Jason Kenney, Conservative, Calgary Southeast, AB]

Thank you, Ms. Grewal.

Yes. In fact, I will be pre-publishing regulations for public commentary, I believe later this month, with respect to the temporary foreign worker program.

That reminds me, I just want to respond to Ms. Chow's suggestion that we're increasing the targets or maintaining targets for that program.

We don't actually have operational targets for the program. It's an entirely demand-driven program, depending on how many applications there are for labour market opinions and work permits by employers. We only fulfill those LMOs at HRSDC or work permits at CIC if the employer can demonstrate they've advertised for the position in Canada and the position has gone unfilled, and the employer clearly demonstrates they are paying the prevailing Canadian wage rate for the temporary worker.

Having said that, I am aware that in a small minority of cases there are allegations or evidence of apparent abuse on the part of some employers. One of the things I intend to bring forward in the draft regulations is a provision where we will remove the right to apply for LMOs and work permits from employers who are repeat abusers.

Part of the challenge is that the labour rights of these individuals fall under provincial jurisdiction. Federally there's very little we can do to enforce those labour rights. Some of the provinces, such as Alberta, have significantly increased their budgets for monitoring and enforcement of labour market standards for temporary foreign workers. Other provinces, like Manitoba, have actually brought forth legislation governing the third parties who play a key role in processing applications for temporary foreign workers.

There is a growing focus on enforcement. We hope to take that one step further with our federal regulations that I will be proposing for public commentary later this month.

[Nina Grewal, Conservative, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

Mr. Chair, if I have more time, I'll pass my time to Mr. Dykstra.

[Jason Kenney, Conservative, Calgary Southeast, AB]

I want to correct myself. I've been advised that those regulations will be coming forward in May. I thought it was March, but it's May.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

Thank you, sir.

Mr. Dykstra.

[Rick Dykstra, Conservative, St. Catharines, ON]

Devinder has a few more questions.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

I'm sorry. Mr. Shory.

We're moving right along.

[Devinder Shory, Conservative, Calgary Northeast, AB]

Thank you.

I would like to follow up on Mr. Calandra's question. I need a specific answer on that.

In one of our committee meetings, the opposition unanimously passed a resolution recommending that no one should be deported to Sri Lanka. How will it, and will it, benefit Canada if we are stopped from deporting anyone to Sri Lanka, notwithstanding that the person has serious criminal activities or involvements?

[Jason Kenney, Conservative, Calgary Southeast, AB]

Every time we decide not to deport someone who is guilty of a crime in Canada, first of all, we are potentially endangering the safety or security of Canadians, regardless of the source country of that person. Secondly, we are frequently forcing the taxpayers to pay for social services for individuals who are guilty of having violated our laws, be they our immigration or criminal laws. I think it's the taxpayer and the average Canadian who should be concerned about this notion that we should not deport criminals. When people break our laws, it's a serious offence.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

We're going to have to stop.

Mr. Dykstra.

[Rick Dykstra, Conservative, St. Catharines, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Coderre brought up a couple of interesting points, which are rattling around in my head, about a fellow by the name of Khaled Mouammar, who I believe was appointed to the IRB as a commissioner. Maybe this is too detailed a question, but the reason it comes to mind is from the aspect of political affiliation. I don't know whether he has any political affiliation or not, but I wonder if there is any truth to that and whether he has a membership to any type of political party, either federally or provincially.

[Jason Kenney, Conservative, Calgary Southeast, AB]

I've read in the public domain that the gentleman in question has a record of contributions to the Liberal Party of Canada. I obviously can't comment on whether he's been a member of any political party.

[Rick Dykstra, Conservative, St. Catharines, ON]

Fair enough.

This leads me to a further question, maybe not so much from an organizational perspective but from specific comments he has made, as president of the CAF, over the last number of weeks, months, and even years. These include comments about you, Minister, comments about the member for Toronto Centre, and comments about the Prime Minister.

I know there have been a lot of questions around the organization in terms of its federal financial support. We are talking about estimates today. Part of estimates is an expenditure of public tax dollars. Given that you're here to speak to the estimates, I thought I would give you an opportunity to tell us how that specific case may be proceeding and to comment on the whole process with respect to grants.

[Jason Kenney, Conservative, Calgary Southeast, AB]

This matter has been in the media a fair bit, so let me be clear, Mr. Chairman. The very first day I arrived at Canadian Heritage as the secretary of state responsible for the multiculturalism program, I received a briefing on grants and contributions. I indicated to the officials that I wanted to ensure that we were not providing grants and contributions to organizations that make excuses for, or apologize for, violence or terrorism, or organizations that are terrorist or that promote hatred. I mentioned, in particular, Mr. Mohamed Elmasry of the Canadian Islamic Congress because of his remarks that Israelis over the age of 18 are legitimate targets for elimination.

I further mentioned, in particular, Mr. Khaled Mouammar, president of the Canadian Arab Federation—this was a discussion I had with my officials in January 2007—because of his circulation, during the 2006 Liberal leadership convention, of a flyer that attacked Bob Rae, a respected member of this Parliament, because of his wife's involvement in the Jewish community. Following the circulation of that flyer, Liberal Senator Yoine Goldstein referred to this flyer as “racist filth”. It was my view then, and it's remained my view since, that we ought not to finance organizations that promote extremism or hatred--in this case, hatred toward Jewish people in particular--or who publicly support a banned, illegal terrorist organization.

Mr. Mouammar has a long record of public comments expressing support for Hamas and Hezbollah, which are two banned, illegal, and essentially anti-Semitic terrorist organizations. He has referred to Israel as a racist state and he has called for the end of Israel as a Jewish state. In my judgment, these and other comments of his are beyond the pale.

Do I suggest that we should have a test on political opinions for the office-holders of NGOs that receive grants and contributions? No, absolutely not. People are free to say what they like within the bounds of our laws. People are free to criticize cabinet ministers or the government. But I do not believe we have any obligation to provide subsidies to individuals who use their organizations as platforms to promote extremism or hatred or to apologize for terrorism.

That's the view I articulated in January 2007 at Canadian Heritage. As a result, we provided no funding to these organizations. That's also the view I articulated recently at the London conference on anti-Semitism. I have also articulated this to my officials. I have asked my department to find ways in which we can include the promotion of hatred or apologizing for terrorism as some of the criteria used in considering applicants for grants or contributions.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

Mr. Karygiannis.

[Jim Karygiannis, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

Thank you, Minister.

Maybe you would also like to take that task to the people who brought in Mr. Türkkaya Ataöv. He spoke openly. This organization is the TSSMU. Maybe you would like to use that same criterion.

You must know and you must have read in 2007 the Prime Minister's document, Accountable Government: A Guide for Ministers and Secretaries of State. It states on page 4:

Ministers and Ministers of State must act with integrity. To ensure public trust and confidence, not only in our Government but in government generally, Ministers and Ministers of State must uphold the highest standards of honesty and impartiality.

Ministers are responsible for ensuring that their departments are managed soundly and with complete integrity.

Ministers are accountable to Parliament for the use of all powers vested in them.

Ministers are accountable to Parliament for the exercise of their responsibilities whether they are assigned by statute or otherwise.

Ministers are also required to answer to Parliament by providing information to Parliament on the use of powers by bodies that report to Parliament through them.

The deputy minister, as the Minister’s principal source of public service support and policy advice, is expected to advise the Minister on all matters under the Minister’s responsibility and authority. He or she plays a key role in promoting appropriate policy coordination, and building coherence in the activities and reporting of the portfolio bodies.

Their role is to provide their Minister with the broadest possible expert advice and support needed for the Minister’s portfolio responsibilities, and to undertake the day-to-day management of the department on behalf of their Minister.

Deputy ministers are responsible and accountable for a wide range of duties including policy advice, program delivery, internal departmental management and interdepartmental coordination.

For an organization to receive money and be on the list to receive money, they must go through an exercise of accountability, an exercise of reporting to the department, and an exercise to bring this forward. Your deputy ministers and officials look at this, and they must also be held accountable for the programs they provide. A lot of these organizations have an executive director, and their bodies--the people who are there to serve--are elected volunteers. Sometimes these volunteers might disagree with a government policy and want to speak on that. These individuals might also come in front of us and advocate policies that you and I might disagree with, but that is their role.

Overall, for the delivery of programs there are benchmarks, accountability, transparency, and most of all, track records on people who deliver these programs. The agency in question may have used the wrong adjectives when they were describing you, and that probably got you a little mad. But at the drop of a hat, this code of accountability certainly went out the window. The discussions you should have had with your deputy ministers went out the window. When the officials were here last time I asked them the same questions, and they certainly were not able to answer.

So you certainly did not look at accountability, you certainly did not take advice, and you certainly did not look at this organization's track record on what they have done and what they haven't done, regardless of their political affiliation and beliefs. The area in question is in need. It's called Steeles-L'Amoreaux and is in my riding in the city of Toronto. It is diagnosed as one of the 13 areas that need help. United Way, as well as the City of Toronto, have outlined it that way.

Minister, not only are you targeting them; there are signals going out to other organizations. Your department has called other organizations that are Arab, and are probably disliked by you, to say, “We're going to audit you.” Your officials also called the Tamil Eelam Society.

Minister, I have news for you: 95% percent of the service these people provide does not go to the Arabs; it goes to people in need. And 5% of the things they provide--settlement services--goes toward a particular ethnicity.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

Thank you, Mr. Karygiannis.

[Jim Karygiannis, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

Certainly you have forgotten all that accountability.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

Monsieur St-Cyr.

[Jason Kenney, Conservative, Calgary Southeast, AB]

I want to thank Mr. Karygiannis for putting his views on the record about public funding of CAF.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

We'll try to go on.

[Jim Karygiannis, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

We certainly know, Minister, what your views are.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

Monsieur St-Cyr.

[Thierry St-Cyr, Bloc, Jeanne-Le Ber, QC]

Thank you.

I would like to go back to the appointment of Pharès Pierre.

You confirmed you were not aware of his past as chief of staff of Mr. Aristide, but you are aware of it now and the question you did not answer earlier is this: now that you know, do you see that this raises an ethical problem?

[Jason Kenney, Conservative, Calgary Southeast, AB]

As I said, I am concerned and this is why I said I am going to call the chairperson of the IRB to determine if there have been shortcomings in the process that led to his selection. The ultimate responsibility for appointments that I recommend to Cabinet rests with me. If I had known about his record in Haiti, it is very likely that I would not have recommended him to Cabinet.

[Thierry St-Cyr, Bloc, Jeanne-Le Ber, QC]

You mentioned, as has Mr. Fadden, the changes you made to the appointment system. You say these were made in order to put an end to partisan appointments. But did we not go to the other extreme? In practical terms, the minister no longer carries the responsibility in so far as he is not aware of the detailed background of the appointees. Furthermore, at least in terms of perception, the general public does not really get the impression that partisan appointments are a thing of the past. We still have one appointee who has been a member of the Progressive-Conservative Party of Canada. I use the full name of that party because there has never been a progressive-conservative party in Quebec. This party, as you know, is no longer in existence. The Conservative Party of Canada has still a presence in Quebec, but one could say it is not very strong.

More seriously, to get back to my question, Mr. Minister, I would like to know if we did not go from one extreme to the other by eliminating any ministerial accountability in order to eliminate partisanship.