Citizenship and Immigration Committee on April 22nd, 2010

[Marc Audet]

If I may, I also demonstrated this in my last presentation to the standing committee. If we can't significantly reduce the waiting time problem for investors, perhaps a temporary work permit could be an option, because, as I mentioned earlier, investors can be patient as long as their children are already in Canada. Investors' primary motivation, particularly in immigration, their push factor, is their children's education. That may vary from one country to another, but it is the main reason. An investor who has to wait three or four or five years before getting an answer will find other options to send their children to other countries. If we can't solve the waiting time problem quickly, perhaps we should assess other options so that when an immigration application is filed, these immigrants' children would have access to our schools. If the process takes three years and the children have been in university for three years, we are in business.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

Thank you.

Mr. Coderre.

[Denis Coderre, Liberal, Bourassa, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I have seen that the numbers are growing, which means that the recession has not hurt immigrant investors, both in Quebec and in the rest of the country. What would you say about that, Mr. Major?

[Eric Major]

Not at all. The rate of wealth creation in India and China has never been seen before in human history, full stop.

The number of millionaires being created on planet Earth grows year in, year out, constantly. And Asia is the driving force to that growth, but make no mistake about it, it's North America and Europe as well. So the number of people who have the ability to afford themselves these options is growing, and hence we need to reposition it.

[Denis Coderre, Liberal, Bourassa, QC]

Right.

Mr. Audet.

[Marc Audet]

Yes, I would like to add to what Mr. Major said. We are seeing what is happening. In the past, in Canada, the Immigrant Investor Program was the unchallenged number one. This is no longer necessarily the case, because other little "mushrooms" are popping up in the world. Now there are programs in Bulgaria, for the European Union. Our next-door neighbour, the United States, had a program at the time that you could count on the fingers of one had, called regional centres. Today, there are 80 of them.

[A voice]

There are 84.

[Marc Audet]

They sniff things out. They look at the other side of the border, on the Canadian side, and see that our business model is a good one. But they notice that even though their business model is not as good, our waiting times are much longer. But they still require a $500,000 investment, and a risk investment, so it's different.

[Denis Coderre, Liberal, Bourassa, QC]

Mr. Paradis.

[Pierre Emmanuel Paradis]

The effect of the recession has been to shorten the line-up waiting, but there is still a very long and very significant line. In the offices there has been no net impact on the volume of applications submitted.

[Denis Coderre, Liberal, Bourassa, QC]

Obviously I knew the Quebec system and the system in the rest of Canada that has had all sorts of problems. That wasn't the case in Quebec; they were very interested and they adapted to the situation. It seems to me that it isn't just a question of waiting times. There may be something else that should be done in the rest of the country to improve the federal program.

You said that you might be able to ask for the money faster. That is the banker speaking, I suppose he is the one who wants to have a deposit as fast as possible, is that it?

[Eric Major]

It's also to help the client get assessed a little sooner, precisely because the fact that the person has money is an indication that it is serious.

But in fact there are other changes that could be made, particularly to the federal program. We hope to take part in discussions in the next few months and specifically to address the question of the allocation of funds that go to the provinces, as you may know. Could the federal government not benefit from that as well?

[Denis Coderre, Liberal, Bourassa, QC]

There could be a figure for small and medium-sized enterprises, the investment.

[Eric Major]

That's right, exactly.

[Denis Coderre, Liberal, Bourassa, QC]

Let's talk about urban legends. They say it's easier to get into Quebec. Is the retention rate stable or do you have people who invest in Quebec and then go to other provinces?

[Marc Audet]

What do you mean by "easier to get into Quebec"?

[Denis Coderre, Liberal, Bourassa, QC]

For example, I've seen that it's easier in terms of waiting times, which are shorter in Quebec. When people arrive in Quebec and see that the federal plan is a little more demanding, does that change the retention rate? When people opt for the Quebec program, or do they go elsewhere?

[Marc Audet]

My answer will be twofold, if I may, Mr. Coderre.

The Quebec program is not necessarily easier. That may be the case if we calculate it in months. But unlike the federal program, when Quebec makes its choice, the client has to make their $400,000 investment. Whether it is eight months later or 10 months later, they then have to make the commitment by making their investment. It is the opposite for the federal program: they make their investment at the end of the process. So they can play with their funds while they're waiting.

That is one of our problems, certainly, because you have to go at it with the clientele. You understand that the leading market for immigrant investors, by far, is China. The second market is Iran. After that there is a gamut of countries, and it can change from year to year. Naturally, for the clientele from Asia, the first port of entry to Canada is often Vancouver airport. Unfortunately for Quebec, there are still no direct flights between Montreal and Peking, and that is a handicap.

The government of Quebec has created a partnership that brings together Investissement Québec and the ministère de l'Immigration. It is a sort of guidance program. We are working on it.

Yes, we bring money into our SMEs. However, as Éric and Pierre Emmanuel were saying earlier, these immigrants spend a lot of money. So it is to our advantage to increase the numbers, but I think we have to do more to get these people to discover Quebec.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

Thank you.

We will move on to Ms. Thi Lac or Mr. St-Cyr.

[Thierry St-Cyr, Bloc, Jeanne-Le Ber, QC]

I'm going to continue.

Mr. Paradis, your recommendations referred to expanding the program. Do you have some idea of the size, to suggest to the committee? What kind of increase should it be, ideally?

[Pierre Emmanuel Paradis]

That has to be answered at the political level, because at the economic level, we could double it overnight and there would be no particular problem for integration. The volume of applications has been the same for a very long time. One thing is truly noteworthy: the contribution made by immigrant investors is not just financial. Certainly, they buy big houses, but in demographic terms, they arrive with three family members, which is much more than for the other economic immigrant classes. From the demographic standpoint and the education standpoint, they contribute positively to mitigating the economic pressure caused by the aging of the population. They are not very numerous. You may say that 2,500 more families is not huge, since there are 33.5 million Canadians, but each of those families is putting pressure in the right direction. The question is really a matter of what commitment the department is prepared to make at the political level.

[Thierry St-Cyr, Bloc, Jeanne-Le Ber, QC]

From time to time, we hear about the possibility of raising the minimum investment to $600,000 or $800,000, when it is currently $400,000. That has been talked about again today. I would like to know what each of you thinks the advantages and disadvantages of each solution are and what your recommendation would be.

[Pierre Emmanuel Paradis]

You would have to look simultaneously at what investment is required and how many months it takes to process the application. Those are the two main variables for an investor. If the processing time to be accepted is longer in a program, the initial contribution threshold has to be lower, to stay competitive in comparison with other programs. Given current processing times, we could even reduce the minimum contribution threshold, because the processing times are so much longer than elsewhere. The current contribution is low, but the waiting time is the longest. The two things must therefore be considered simultaneously. What processing times do we want? What contribution do we want to get?

In terms of the contribution question, we note something interesting in our report. There is not just the question of the inflation of the dollar from one year to the next. This $400,000 may cost a Canadian less today than it did 20 years ago, but we have to take the exchange rate into account. It depends on the country, but as a general rule, the Canadian dollar has risen in relation to other currencies. So that can produce a different picture.

[Thierry St-Cyr, Bloc, Jeanne-Le Ber, QC]

I'm going to play devil's advocate. You say that if the threshold is raised, it will be less attractive in terms of processing times, but will they not naturally decline?

[Pierre Emmanuel Paradis]

If the admission capacity is kept the same, the opposite will happen. The line-up will get even longer.