Evidence of meeting #14 for Citizenship and Immigration in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was system.
A recording is available from Parliament.
4:15 p.m.
NDP
Olivia Chow NDP Trinity—Spadina, ON
Okay.
This is to OCASI, whom we see on video conferencing. How many organizations do you represent, have you communicated with them, and what is the response of the different organizations you're representing?
4:15 p.m.
Coordinator, Policy and Public Education, Ontario Council of Agencies Serving Immigrants (OCASI)
We have almost 220 organizations across Ontario. Understandably, not all work with refugee claimants, but many do. The ones that we've heard from, the ones that I mentioned, are deeply concerned about the bill.
Their other concern is that unlike other cases when the committee has important legislation before you, they don't have a chance to be heard. They're concerned about that, about the elements of the bill, very concerned about the short amount of time in which claimants have to make their case to a civil servant. But in general, our members want to be heard.
As Janet said, not everyone is in a position to submit a written brief or even prepare something in detail, but they definitely want to have their concerns heard.
4:15 p.m.
NDP
Olivia Chow NDP Trinity—Spadina, ON
All three organizations represent a large number, because you have member agencies: 220 member organizations in Ontario and 180 organizations across the country. So the organizations themselves would have received some information from your group and they are responding back to you. Would they have the opportunity to now get involved and tell their members?
For example, if I represent an immigrant-serving agency in Toronto, I would receive an e-mail or a letter from OCASI or from CCR saying, “This is our concern.” Would they be able to sign on to say, “We agree with your recommendations on how you want this bill to be modified”? Is there such an opportunity?
4:15 p.m.
Executive Director, Canadian Council for Refugees
We haven't proposed to them specifically to endorse the whole brief, but there is an open letter that the CCR has been circulating around. It has been signed by quite a number of organizations, some of them CCR members and others non-members who share the concerns. It identifies the principal concerns.
I would be happy to table a copy of that letter in both English and French with this committee.
4:20 p.m.
NDP
Olivia Chow NDP Trinity—Spadina, ON
That would be wonderful. The brief, I would assume, would be similar to what both Amnesty and OCASI are interested in, which is primarily the safe countries designation, the shortness of the eight days, the lack of humanitarian and compassionate grounds consideration, the lack of PRRA, or the fact that if you are in safe countries you have no appeal.
Those are the four or five main areas. I'm sure there would be other smaller areas, but those are the key areas of concern. Would you be able to collectively bring that together and say that these are the organizations that are signing on, including maybe the majority of the 75 members from Amnesty International who are saying, “Here are the things that we want the bill to change; keep the appeal division, but remove the safe countries designation,” for example?
Is that something that someone can pull together?
4:20 p.m.
NDP
4:20 p.m.
Executive Director, Canadian Council for Refugees
Can you give us some more time?
4:20 p.m.
Executive Director, Canadian Council for Refugees
As we said at the outset, we and our members have expressed real shock at the way in which the committee is proceeding at such a rushed pace. We're talking about really serious legislation that affects people's lives. We are talking about a process that is very difficult to get right, and when you get it wrong, you can be costing people's lives. You can also be creating processes that end up being inefficient when they were intended to be faster. You can end up with a law that leads to enormous amounts of litigation.
4:20 p.m.
Conservative
4:20 p.m.
Conservative
Rick Dykstra Conservative St. Catharines, ON
Ms. Dench, I'm going to turn most of my time over to Ms. Grewal, but I want it to be clear. In the first part of your comments, you indicated that you had not been consulted and that you have had no consultation in this process. Could you clarify that for me?
4:20 p.m.
Executive Director, Canadian Council for Refugees
I think we said that there has not been broad external consultation. We repeatedly asked for a meeting with the minister, which he was not willing to give. We have also spoken to the department and said that we would like to have a consultation with the department.
4:20 p.m.
Conservative
Rick Dykstra Conservative St. Catharines, ON
So you have not had a meeting with anyone in the department. You did not sign a non-disclosure agreement with the ministry to sit down and have a discussion on the framework of how this was going to proceed?
4:20 p.m.
Executive Director, Canadian Council for Refugees
With the ministry? You mean the department?
4:20 p.m.
Executive Director, Canadian Council for Refugees
No, I have not met with the department.
4:20 p.m.
Conservative
Rick Dykstra Conservative St. Catharines, ON
Have you met with anyone in the ministry, or the minister's office?
4:20 p.m.
Executive Director, Canadian Council for Refugees
Well, we've met with people in the ministry, of course. I have met with a member of the minister's staff. But as I said to him at the time, that would not count for us as a consultation with the CCR.
4:20 p.m.
Conservative
Rick Dykstra Conservative St. Catharines, ON
It may not count with you, but he actually has probably spent more time on this file than any ministry official has. He reached out to you, did he not, to ask you to come meet with him, to sit down and spend almost two hours reviewing what I think was a pretty robust conversation? I know we're not going to get into the details of it, but it certainly was a conversation where there was a lot of listening going on in terms of direction that we needed to take.
4:20 p.m.
Executive Director, Canadian Council for Refugees
I'm at a bit of a disadvantage, because I'm not allowed to say what was said or not said at that meeting. But as I said to him before the meeting, the CCR is an umbrella agency. I'm a staff person of it, but I cannot speak on behalf of all of our members, and especially not when I'm forced to sign a disclosure, if I'm to enter into the conversation.
4:20 p.m.
Conservative
Rick Dykstra Conservative St. Catharines, ON
No, that's fair, and I'm not trying to put you in that position. I just want to make sure that it's clear and on the record that there was consultation that you did have. It certainly was a longer period than the seven minutes that you've had here to present today. Yes, no...?
4:20 p.m.
Executive Director, Canadian Council for Refugees
As I say, if I was allowed to speak about what was discussed in the meeting, I could have comments, but since I had to sign a non-disclosure, I cannot say what I would want to say in response to your--
4:20 p.m.
Conservative
Rick Dykstra Conservative St. Catharines, ON
All I was asking you to do was confirm that a meeting had happened.
I'll turn the rest of my time over to Ms. Grewal.
