Evidence of meeting #18 for Citizenship and Immigration in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was appeal.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Gerry Van Kessel  Former Director General, Refugees Branch, Department of Citizenship and Immigration, Former Coordinator, Intergovernmental Consultations on Asylum, Refugees and Migration Policy, Geneva, As an Individual
Jordan Pachciarz Cohen  Settlement Worker, Mennonite New Life Centre of Toronto
Maria Eva Delgado Bahena  Refugee, Mennonite New Life Centre of Toronto
Abraham Abraham  Representative in Canada, Office of the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees
Hy Shelow  Senior Protection Officer, Office of the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees
Michael Casasola  Resettlement Officer, Office of the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees
Helen Kennedy  Executive Director, Egale Canada
Max Berger  Lawyer, Max Berger Professional Law Corporation, As an Individual
Pia Zambelli  Member, Legislative Review Committee, Quebec Immigration Lawyers Association (AQAADI)

8:40 p.m.

Member, Legislative Review Committee, Quebec Immigration Lawyers Association (AQAADI)

Pia Zambelli

I'm referring to the fact that in the bill itself there's a power to designate a class of nationals within a country, not just a country, but a class of nationals within a country. It's in the current bill.

For example, you may feel that Nigeria would never get on the safe countries list, but there are many decisions of the board that decide homosexuals are not persecuted in Nigeria and that they're a safe group, so to speak. To institutionalize that by putting that group of people on a list I think is not an approach we should take in Canada.

8:45 p.m.

NDP

Olivia Chow NDP Trinity—Spadina, ON

In England there is a case in the courts where some of the judges and the refugee determination officers said if you're a homosexual, you can go back to your home country and hide it, so you're not really in the face of any kind of danger. And that's why the applications were refused.

I'm not kidding you. It's true. It is in court right now. There is a debate in England about that, even though the new government has said it will accept gay and lesbian refugee claimants. England also has a safe countries designation, and Canada is copying its law right now.

My question is to Mr. Max Berger. If refugees are denied the right to appeal if the safe countries designation passes through Bill C-11, what kinds of challenges and what kinds of implications do you think there would be, especially to the gay and lesbian communities?

8:45 p.m.

Lawyer, Max Berger Professional Law Corporation, As an Individual

Max Berger

I suppose you're going to find a lot of gays and lesbians being refused by the first-level decision-maker, with no opportunity for an appeal on the merits or on the facts. The only appeal that will be open is the appeal that is available right now, which, as you know, is very limited. For the most part, it is only on points of law. So those folks would be out of luck.

8:45 p.m.

NDP

Olivia Chow NDP Trinity—Spadina, ON

Have you or the Quebec Bar Association communicated your position to the Liberal Party leader, Mr. Ignatieff? Has Egale done so? I'm not hearing precisely what their position is. I hear some Liberal MPs seem to be against safe countries of origin. The critic is supportive of it. Have you communicated your concern, for example?

8:45 p.m.

Member, Legislative Review Committee, Quebec Immigration Lawyers Association (AQAADI)

Pia Zambelli

We will certainly do so. We were told the deadline to do so was May 13, and that they were going to take a position at the meeting the next day, but if they haven't yet taken a position, certainly we'll forward documents to the leadership.

8:45 p.m.

NDP

Olivia Chow NDP Trinity—Spadina, ON

On June 1 this committee will go through clause-by-clause of the bill, and June 3 will be the last day, when this committee will finish with this bill. It will then be sent back to the House of Commons for the report stage and third reading. There seems to be momentum among both the Conservatives and the Liberals to put this bill through the House of Commons before the summer break, which starts on June 23, so time is short.

8:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative David Tilson

Thank you very much.

Dr. Wong has the floor.

8:45 p.m.

Conservative

Alice Wong Conservative Richmond, BC

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you very much, witnesses, for coming.

I have just a short question for Ms. Zambelli. We have 42 clauses. I want to ask which clause actually defines the safe country of origin. Do we have a list yet? Is there a list there?

8:45 p.m.

Member, Legislative Review Committee, Quebec Immigration Lawyers Association (AQAADI)

Pia Zambelli

It is clause 12 of the bill, amending section 109--

8:45 p.m.

Conservative

Alice Wong Conservative Richmond, BC

Is there a list already?

8:45 p.m.

Member, Legislative Review Committee, Quebec Immigration Lawyers Association (AQAADI)

Pia Zambelli

No, there is no list, as far as I--

8:45 p.m.

Conservative

Alice Wong Conservative Richmond, BC

That means the list has to be defined later, not now, right?

8:45 p.m.

Member, Legislative Review Committee, Quebec Immigration Lawyers Association (AQAADI)

8:45 p.m.

Conservative

Alice Wong Conservative Richmond, BC

Even within the same country of origin, pockets of people will be exempt, so again that hasn't been decided. It's country by country. I just wanted to let you know about that.

About the eight days, I think a lot of misinformation has been given by witnesses, unfortunately. The idea, I believe, is that the eight-day interview will be completed by an immigration officer with the assistance of an IRB officer.

For the sixty-day period, the significant change is that the Governor-in-Council decision-maker will be phased out and replaced by members employed under the Public Service Employment Act. The chair of the IRB came before our committee, and he will determine how to fill those spots. He said it will be a thorough, wide process, and we will not include only civil servants. That might be something we'd like everybody to know.

About Mexico: if you all remember, Mexicans are not part of the false claimant list. Last year 89% of Mexican applications were turned down, and we had to put back the visa application requirement. From the 92,000 who applied as refugees before the visa requirement was dropped, it came down to a handful. That means Mexico is probably where some of the false claimants came from.

About interviews: I understand some people are concerned about people who have evidence of trauma or vulnerability, but the interviewing officers the Immigration and Refugee Board appointed have the flexibility to adjourn interviews to a later date in cases where they find it necessary. The reformed system looks at that as well.

I was really disappointed that people are still happy with the present situation, whereby we have 18 months of wait time for genuine refugee claimants and we have people who have been here for ten years who still haven't got a final answer. I don't know why people still feel the present system is working.

I want to share my time with Mr. Calandra.

8:50 p.m.

Conservative

Paul Calandra Conservative Oak Ridges—Markham, ON

How much time is left, Mr. Chairman?

8:50 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative David Tilson

Three minutes.

8:50 p.m.

Conservative

Paul Calandra Conservative Oak Ridges—Markham, ON

All right.

I was going to follow up on what Madam Wong asked: what criteria you were basing your assessment of what the safe countries of origin would be. You seem to have identified the Czech Republic and a number of other countries that would be safe countries of origin. I'm wondering what criteria you have used in both this legislation and any other to come to the conclusion that the Czech Republic, Mexico, or any other country would be a safe country of origin.

8:50 p.m.

Member, Legislative Review Committee, Quebec Immigration Lawyers Association (AQAADI)

Pia Zambelli

I was basing that on public statements made by the minister.

8:50 p.m.

Conservative

Paul Calandra Conservative Oak Ridges—Markham, ON

So nothing you've seen in legislation?

8:50 p.m.

Member, Legislative Review Committee, Quebec Immigration Lawyers Association (AQAADI)

Pia Zambelli

There is nothing yet in the legislation.

8:50 p.m.

Conservative

Paul Calandra Conservative Oak Ridges—Markham, ON

So you're just speculating, essentially.

8:50 p.m.

Member, Legislative Review Committee, Quebec Immigration Lawyers Association (AQAADI)

Pia Zambelli

Based on the minister's statements, yes.

8:50 p.m.

Conservative

Paul Calandra Conservative Oak Ridges—Markham, ON

You said the reforms would be very expensive and there's not a rationale for this. Should anything we do be based on reducing the costs, as opposed to the effectiveness? Should Canadians expect a system that is cheaper, or should they expect a system they can respect and that helps not only Canadians but also the refugee claimants to respect the institutions of government and those that support the government?

8:50 p.m.

Member, Legislative Review Committee, Quebec Immigration Lawyers Association (AQAADI)

Pia Zambelli

If the system were expensive but a good system and would solve the actual problems, I wouldn't characterize it as too expensive. The problem with this, in our opinion, is that for the money being spent, I don't know that it's going to solve any of the core issues, and it could even create more problems.

8:50 p.m.

Conservative

Paul Calandra Conservative Oak Ridges—Markham, ON

Okay. You also mentioned the personal information form. Has no one ever stretched the truth on a personal information form?