Evidence of meeting #19 for Citizenship and Immigration in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was list.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Peter MacDougall  Director General, Refugees, Department of Citizenship and Immigration
Jennifer Irish  Director, Asylum Policy Program Development, Department of Citizenship and Immigration
John Butt  Manager, Program Development, Department of Citizenship and Immigration
Luke Morton  Senior Legal Counsel, Manager, Refugee Legal Team, Legal Services, Department of Citizenship and Immigration
Raphael Girard  As an Individual
Alexandra Pierre  Community Organizer, Responsible for anti-racism and discrimination issues, Fédération des femmes du Québec
Nathalie Ricard  Coalition des familles homoparentales du Québec, Fédération des femmes du Québec
James Kafieh  Legal Counsel, Canadian Arab Federation
Andrew Telegdi  Former Parliamentary Secretary, Former Chair and Vice-Chair of the Standing Committee on Citizenship and Immigration, As an Individual

3:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative David Tilson

Good afternoon, everyone. This is meeting number 19 of the Standing Committee on Citizenship and Immigration, on Thursday, May 27, 2010. The orders of the day are pursuant to the order of reference of Thursday, April 29, 2010, Bill C-11, An Act to amend the Immigration and Refugee Protection Act and the Federal Courts Act.

For the first hour today, we have officials from the Department of Citizenship and Immigration. We have Peter MacDougall, who is the director general of refugees. In fact, I think I recognize all these names; I think everybody has been here before. We have Jennifer Irish, director of asylum policy program development; John Butt, manager of program development; and Luke Morton, who is senior legal counsel and manager of the refugee legal team, legal services. You all have very long titles, but that's good.

Mr. MacDougall, I've spoken to you earlier. I'd like to welcome you and your colleagues to the committee. I think you're going to make a brief presentation of up to 10 minutes. Then my colleagues may have some questions for you.

I'd like to welcome all of you to the committee.

3:35 p.m.

Peter MacDougall Director General, Refugees, Department of Citizenship and Immigration

Thank you very much. We're all very pleased to be here to address you on Bill C-11, the government's balanced refugee reform legislation.

As you know, Bill C-11 proposes to reform our asylum system by giving faster protection to asylum claimants who truly need it, reducing the abuse of our system, and providing for faster removal of failed claimants.

We are aware of four areas of concern for the committee: the safe country of origin list; matters concerning humanitarian and compassionate claims; timelines for initial interviews with claimants and later hearings before the board; the hiring and independence of the officials who carry out interviews and hearings at the board.

Today, we will address the first two matters. I understand the committee will later be hearing from representatives of the board, who will address the latter two concerns.

As you know, Mr. Chair, as part of the proposed reform measures, the government would develop a safe country of origin list. Most Canadians and the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees recognize that there are places in the world where the persecution of people is less likely to occur compared to other areas.

In his testimony to the committee earlier this week, Mr. Abraham Abraham, the UNHCR representative in Canada, noted that the UNHCR does not oppose the introduction of the safe country of origin list, as long as it is not used as an absolute bar to the consideration of an asylum claim. A safe country of origin list is a necessary tool to reform the asylum system. We have no way within the current system to rapidly address surges of asylum claims that could prove to be unfounded, such as claims from individuals whose countries have strong democratic, judicial, and accountability frameworks to protect their citizens. Without such a tool to help manage claims, our only other recourse is to impose visas.

Mr. Chair, we are aware that the proposal concerning this safe country of origin list has prompted concerns. As you know, the minister has stressed his desire to be flexible on this matter, and his appearance here on May 4 indicated his willingness to work out amendments either to the bill or to regulations that would clearly delineate the process for designating safe countries and the associated criteria.

As you know, Mr. Chair, the list of safe countries would include those that do not normally produce refugees, have robust human rights records, and offer state protection to their citizens. The safe country of origin list, however, would not be exhaustive, including countries from A to Z.

I would like to note that in developing the proposed list, we would not close the door on refugees seeking Canada's protection.

All eligible asylum claimants, regardless of where they came from, would continue to receive a fair hearing before the board just as they do today.

I would also like to underline that under this proposal, asylum claimants from safe countries of origin would receive the same hearing and access they receive under the system today.

In order to be even considered for the list, countries would first need to meet quantitative criteria. For example, only if the volume of asylum claims from a country exceeded a specified threshold and the acceptance rate for these claims did not reach a specific threshold, would that country be considered for the list.

These thresholds will be articulated in revised regulations, a draft of which will be provided to the committee, as agreed to by the minister.

Countries meeting the threshold would then undergo a thorough assessment, based on objective criteria. Such assessments would consider whether the country had a strong record of providing its citizens with human rights protections, and the availability of state protection and redress. The goal of these is to clearly delineate the criteria for the designation of safe countries of origin, including the factors that would trigger a review of a particular country, and ensure that the minister would not have discretion to designate a country that had not undergone a rigorous assessment.

This assessment would be done by a panel of experts from a variety of departments. It would make recommendations to the minister about which countries to include on the list once the country assessments were completed. We would also seek the input of the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees in this process.

Using a safe country of origin mechanism to deter and manage spikes in asylum claims is not unique to Canada. Our approach would be consistent with similar policies in many European countries, including the United Kingdom, France, and Germany.

In addition, most European Union states also have accelerated asylum procedures for the nationals of other EU member states, which are considered to be generally safe.

Furthermore, the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees has noted that the principle of developing such a list is not inconsistent with acceptable asylum practices.

I should note that Canada already makes determinations on country conditions, such as when ministers receive advice on which countries should be placed on the temporary stay of removal list.

This is also the case with visa policy decisions. Countries are treated differently. Some countries have a visa exemption and some countries do not.

Developing a safe country of origin list would fundamentally help reduce abuse of Canada's asylum system by those who are not truly in need of our protection.

Mr. Chair, we also realize that the proposed provisions on the humanitarian and compassionate program are prompting some concern. It is worth noting that the original intent of the H and C provision was to provide the government with the flexibility to approve exceptional and compelling cases not anticipated in the Immigration and Refugee Protection Act. It was never intended to be an alternate immigration stream or an appeal mechanism for failed asylum claimants. It should be reserved for exceptional cases.

But what has happened is that some failed asylum claimants use the humanitarian and compassionate provision in another process to try to remain in Canada. In fact, more than half of the humanitarian and compassionate backlog is now made up of failed asylum claimants.

The government has therefore proposed a one-year bar on humanitarian and compassionate claims following the last IRB decision, in order to discourage failed claimants from seeking to remain in Canada.

The idea here is to recognize that, since failed claimants would have just had their risk assessed, most would have access to an appeal and all could seek leave from the Federal Court.

In addition, these H and C applications often raise issues related to personal risk and country conditions, factors that are already considered by the IRB when it assesses the asylum claim. As a result, the proposed reforms also include removing the consideration of certain kinds of risks from humanitarian and compassionate applications.

Specifically, this concerns risks as defined under sections 96 and 97 of the Immigration and Refugee Protection Act, which are also assessed as part of the refugee protection process and in a pre-removal risk assessment. This reform would clarify the distinction between H and C decision-making and the refugee protection and pre-removal risk assessment processes.

Under the proposed measures, H and C decisions would focus on considerations such as establishment in Canada, the best interests of the child, relationships in Canada, the country of origin's ability to provide medical treatment, and risks of discrimination in that country, as well as generalized risk in the country of origin.

In conclusion, as the minister has said, the proposed measures meet and exceed Canada's domestic and international obligations and maintain the balance and fairness that are the principles of our entire immigration, refugee, and citizenship systems.

Thank you very much.

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative David Tilson

Thank you, Mr. MacDougall.

The first questions will be asked by Monsieur Coderre.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

Denis Coderre Liberal Bourassa, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

If I understand correctly, you have just repeated to us what the minister has told you. You are here to tell us what this entails for refugees from safe countries. Is that correct?

3:40 p.m.

Director General, Refugees, Department of Citizenship and Immigration

Peter MacDougall

No. We're here to clarify some of the concerns that were raised by the safe country of origin and the humanitarian and compassionate elements.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

Denis Coderre Liberal Bourassa, QC

Mr. Chairman, I have always believed and thought, having applied it personally, that the way to manage or prevent a flood of false refugees—let's call them that—was to enforce a visa policy. We did it with Costa Rica, in particular, when we were in power, and it worked.

Putting forward a policy that asserts that such and such a country is a safe country strips Canada, in its scheme of values and its most firmly established program, of all its power to say that each case is specific. That means, for example, that Mexico could be perceived as a safe country, whereas, at the time, more than 1,000 refugees from Mexico were accepted. That's only one example among many others.

Instead of starting to consider refugees or future refugees as people who may abuse the system by suggesting that they are from such and such a country, why not do what we did with the United States, and sign a bilateral agreement with exemption measures, like the Canada-U.S. Safe Third Country Agreement? That would be better than starting to prepare a list of all safe countries, whether it be Greece or other countries. Ultimately, such a list will give refugees certain impressions. There may be abuses because, in order to take the pressure off his shoulders, the minister will be free to respond as he did during the Olympic Games. To one refugee claimant from Japan, he answered that Japan was a safe country and that that made no sense. We don't know what is going on in one country or another. There may be problems for reasons of sexual orientation, religion, gender or other matters.

So why put two fundamental elements in this act? I think we have to retain humanitarian and compassionate grounds—we can discuss that later, when my colleagues talk about it. However, why add this matter of designated safe countries, when all we wanted was to establish a much fairer process, similar, for example, to the provisions on the Refugee Appeal Division that we agreed on in Bill C-11? I'm entirely in favour of that. We didn't need to say that we're going to establish a list of safe countries and subsequently send somewhat contradictory messages.

Saying that you'll have a panel means you're in favour of the principle.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative David Tilson

Stop the clock for a minute.

Monsieur Coderre, in my opinion, you're dangerously close to getting into policy questions.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Denis Coderre Liberal Bourassa, QC

It is policy; it's not politics.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative David Tilson

Well, it's a policy issue, and I'm not so sure that these witnesses, being staff, should answer those. I'm making that observation. If they have an answer, they can give one. I'm just saying as chairman that in my opinion you're asking policy questions.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Denis Coderre Liberal Bourassa, QC

With all due respect, when you have people representing the minister who are saying what the member from the UNHCR is saying and proposing some new process that will change the values of this country, I'm not on politics--I'm on policy. Yes, I am asking for answers on policy, because it is for those people to explain to us what the content of the legislation means.

They have the power and the authority to clarify, so they can provide me with some answers on what it means. I'm not asking them to play the role of the minister, sir.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative David Tilson

Well, I'm not going to overrule it, but I'm just drawing to... These people have all been around. In my opinion, it's a policy question and to ask those questions of staff who advise the minister and the government is inappropriate, but we'll leave it up to them.

You may start the clock again.

On the same point of order, Mr. Karygiannis.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Jim Karygiannis Liberal Scarborough—Agincourt, ON

Yes, Chair. I am just wondering, if we cannot ask staff of the department about policy and get clarification of policy, then why did we invite them and why are we wasting their valuable time when they could be doing other things? If they are not here to do that, then maybe we should ask the minister to come.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative David Tilson

I believe the minister will be coming, and it would be appropriate to ask these questions to the minister.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Jim Karygiannis Liberal Scarborough—Agincourt, ON

Mr. Chair, why do we have them then?

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative David Tilson

Well, if you have no questions, we'll move on to Mr. St-Cyr.

3:45 p.m.

An hon. member

No, no--

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative David Tilson

If you don't have any questions--

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Jim Karygiannis Liberal Scarborough—Agincourt, ON

It's not questions--

3:45 p.m.

An hon. member

It's a point of order.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Jim Karygiannis Liberal Scarborough—Agincourt, ON

On the point of order--

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative David Tilson

On the point of order, I have made my comment. It's more to assist the witnesses. If they wish to respond, they can, but if they don't wish to respond, that's their business. But that's my observation.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Denis Coderre Liberal Bourassa, QC

Could we start the clock again?

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative David Tilson

Yes.

Start the clock.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Denis Coderre Liberal Bourassa, QC

Can I go on with my questions, sir?

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative David Tilson

Sure, of course you can.