Citizenship and Immigration Committee on May 27th, 2010

[Thierry St-Cyr, Bloc, Jeanne-Le Ber, QC]

Thank you.

Ms. Jordan, I want to come back to the gay and lesbian community. You said that the current definition of a refugee was rather narrow. Fortunately, in a number of cases, certain members are broadening the definition of persecution to include sexual orientation, but others are not. Personally, I think an appeal division would be a good thing. It would result in a consistent interpretation where sexual orientation could be considered grounds for persecution.

Furthermore, are you not concerned that if the safe country measure passes, it would be used in cases where the country's situation was the least obvious, the least clear, and that less analysis would be done and the case law would be relied upon less, when, in fact, more analysis would be needed?

[Sharalyn Jordan]

You raise a very important point. The quality of information available around homophobic and transphobic persecution is extremely sparse. It's limited. So people are making life and death decisions based on highly questionable, sometimes contradictory, information. This is particularly true in situations where countries are in flux.

The example of Turkey was brought up. There will likely be a non-discrimination law passed in Turkey fairly soon. At the same time, men going into the military in Turkey are publicly humiliated if they are gay. Their photos are put in the paper. They have to make a public statement that they are gay and they are not allowed in the military. But the information we have on that is very limited.

Another good example would be a few hearings I've been in recently for two trans women and then a lesbian woman, all from Mexico. They're some of the very few, 8%, who are being accepted from Mexico. These hearings took eight hours, and then the board members spent another three or four weeks deliberating over the evidence because it was very challenging to make these decisions.

When these decisions are so complex and involve life and death decisions, it is really critical that we have an appeal. The designated country list is a cumbersome mechanism.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

We have to move on. I'm sorry.

Ms. Chow.

[Olivia Chow, NDP, Trinity—Spadina, ON]

On that same note, perhaps you can describe your organization and the kind of work you do. It's fairly obvious, but perhaps you can describe it more and tell us who you represent and the connections you have with different organizations—EGALE, etc. Give us a bit of a description.

[Sharalyn Jordan]

Sure. Rainbow Refugee is a Vancouver-based group. We've been around since 2000. We hold drop-in meetings at the community centre for LGBT persons twice a month. Basically this is a place for people to learn about the refugee process and, I would say, to gain social support from each other. We also liaise with settlement organizations and lawyers, because it is often challenging, as we've said, for someone to come in and say, “I'm gay; I need to make a refugee claim.”

They continue to need the support of settlement organizations. Our support helps to make it easier for them to go in and get the help they need. We also connect them with lawyers who are familiar with these kinds of claims, because, again, it is a specialized field. People need to have in-depth experience. Often people arriving at the airport may know that they face risks. They know they are in danger, but they don't understand that the risks and dangers they've faced constitute persecution and they need the help of working with a lawyer to understand this. So we make sure we connect them with lawyers who understand the specifics of homophobic and transphobic persecution.

[Olivia Chow, NDP, Trinity—Spadina, ON]

Do you have counterparts in Toronto, Montreal, and other big cities, for example?

[Sharalyn Jordan]

Yes. There's a group in Toronto called SOY Express, based out of the Sherbourne Health Centre. They've been around, I believe, since 2002. Suhail Abualsameed is the leader of this group. I know him. I've met him at conferences and things like this.

[Olivia Chow, NDP, Trinity—Spadina, ON]

Would the experience of all the different groups be quite similar to yours?

[Sharalyn Jordan]

I believe it would be very similar, yes. AGIR is a group in Montreal that has recently formed and, yes, is very similar.

[Olivia Chow, NDP, Trinity—Spadina, ON]

I would imagine all of them would share the same policies that you have on safe country designation.

[Sharalyn Jordan]

Very much. We've been speaking on the phone and by e-mail and raising these concerns with each other. I know AGIR has submitted a brief, so I hope you will also give it attention, and yes, Suhail and I have spoken at length about our concerns, and they have very similar concerns.

[Olivia Chow, NDP, Trinity—Spadina, ON]

As you may or may not know, this committee will be finishing its deliberations, in terms of its hearings, on Monday night. I believe we'll be hearing from the minister, and then on Tuesday and Thursday, for two days, we will be doing clause-by-clause consideration in camera at this committee. The bill will then pass this committee, maybe, and it would then go to the House of Commons for final report stage and third reading. So there is really not a lot of time left.

[Sharalyn Jordan]

No, it's happening fast.

[Olivia Chow, NDP, Trinity—Spadina, ON]

Yes, it's being fast-tracked. If you have any information you need to provide to other members of Parliament, this would be the time.

I want to thank you for coming.

Do I still have one or two minutes?

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

You do.

[Olivia Chow, NDP, Trinity—Spadina, ON]

Have you made any submissions to other members of Parliament in which you have been able to express your opinions, other than at this committee? Have you been able to talk to your local elected MPs, for example?

[Sharalyn Jordan]

We have good relationships with the MPs who represent the ridings most of our members come from, so we've had an opportunity to speak with Dr. Hedy Fry, for example, and some local politicians.

[Olivia Chow, NDP, Trinity—Spadina, ON]

Do you plan to do more discussion with other members of Parliament, given that there is so little time here?

[Sharalyn Jordan]

We have meetings scheduled next week, so hopefully we'll have more opportunities to do that, yes.

[Olivia Chow, NDP, Trinity—Spadina, ON]

All right. Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

Thank you, Ms. Chow.

We have Mr. Young.

[Terence Young, Conservative, Oakville, ON]

Thanks for coming today. We appreciate your advice.

I assume you know that there are thousands of people in Canada every year who make refugee claims that are not real—maybe as many as half the people who make the claims. So how do you discern if people walk in your door asking for help? Do you discern and say no to some people, or do you act like a lawyer or an advocate and whoever comes in you take their case and you advocate for them?

[Sharalyn Jordan]

I absolutely acknowledge that there are claims made that are either fraudulent or not well-founded. I want to caution against assuming that someone who has their claim rejected and that 50% rejection rate.... People are rejected for a number of reasons, not just because they've submitted a fraudulent claim.

When people come in the door, we give them information. We give them very clear guidelines around the distinction between discrimination and persecution. We let them know what the refugee process is about. They make decisions about whether to proceed with claims.

[Terence Young, Conservative, Oakville, ON]

What percentage would just walk away and say no...?

[Sharalyn Jordan]

We're such a low-budget organization, we don't keep stats like that. Probably 20% or 25% come, find the information, and no, it's not for them.