Evidence of meeting #23 for Citizenship and Immigration in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was clause.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Peter MacDougall  Director General, Refugees, Department of Citizenship and Immigration
Luke Morton  Senior Legal Counsel, Manager, Refugee Legal Team, Legal Services, Department of Citizenship and Immigration
John Butt  Manager, Program Development, Department of Citizenship and Immigration

6:05 p.m.

Liberal

Denis Coderre Liberal Bourassa, QC

Mr. Chairman, I'm satisfied by the arguments. I'm also thinking out loud. Not all men are angels. We want a balanced act. In other words, just as the minister must not be at the mercy of a system, the system must not be at the mercy of a minister. I'm not asking you to make any comments; this is political.

There may be a necessity, since this is a first. You confirmed that this previously didn't exist and that we won't be talking about safe countries but rather designated countries. I want to make sure that things ultimately work properly. I don't know whether we should consider a clause that would require revision in five years. While a three-year period is a bit short, a five-year period affords the time to determine whether things have worked properly.

I don't like us introducing a concept that affects a system, a specific value. I'm willing to believe that, from now on, all cases will be individual and that, under the regulations, matters will go more quickly. That's fine. Mr. Chairman, I would like us to be able to discuss matters. I am prepared to give my support for this clause if we first consider the possibility of requesting a review of clause 12 in five years. That's called a review provision.

We could do it, unless provision is already made for it in the transitional measures of the act. I believe we would be improving this bill if we gave ourselves the opportunity to say that we agree with all that, but that we'll review everything in five years to see whether it really has worked properly. There is one fact: The planet is changing enormously. Cases may arise that we haven't considered. We have to give ourselves a way out. Perhaps we may even renew this provision. If we give ourselves a way out, if we decide that, in five years, we'll see that the designated country concept has worked well, I believe this would serve everyone.

6:05 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative David Tilson

Are you moving a sunset clause?

6:05 p.m.

Liberal

Denis Coderre Liberal Bourassa, QC

I'm asking first, Mr. Chair, to have kind of a little debate. I want to seek advice from my colleagues. I think if we have that, we will go to sleep very early tonight.

6:05 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative David Tilson

I'd like that.

6:05 p.m.

Liberal

Denis Coderre Liberal Bourassa, QC

I know. That's why I'm saying that.

6:05 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative David Tilson

Mr. Dykstra and then Ms. Chow.

6:05 p.m.

Conservative

Rick Dykstra Conservative St. Catharines, ON

I am actually not sure the amendment Mr. Codere is suggesting is necessary. Perhaps one of our representatives from the ministry could clarify the ongoing review that takes place with respect to issues like this.

6:10 p.m.

Director General, Refugees, Department of Citizenship and Immigration

Peter MacDougall

Certainly. The intention is that for the group that works to inform the advisory panel, the resources have been set aside for a monitoring and analysis unit within CIC. Its job will be to be monitor country conditions around the world, including, and in particular, the conditions of countries that become designated countries of origin. So there will be an ongoing analysis and an opportunity to change designations.

I can't remember the date, but about ten days ago we tabled with the committee the draft safe-country-of-origin regulations, and—

6:10 p.m.

An hon. member

Designated.

6:10 p.m.

Director General, Refugees, Department of Citizenship and Immigration

Peter MacDougall

Yes, designated countries of origin. I'll just read it to you:

The Minister may cancel a designation made under subsection 109.1(1) of the act without consulting the advisory panel of experts.

So the minister, in response to country conditions, can overnight de-designate a country from the designated country of origin list. So there is an ongoing review mechanism there. Fixing it to a certain period of time would probably actually limit the ability to be responsive to changing countries of origin.

6:10 p.m.

Conservative

Rick Dykstra Conservative St. Catharines, ON

The point is, if we put in a timeframe review it would actually limit some of the capacity of the ministry or the minister to actually de-designate a country.

6:10 p.m.

Director General, Refugees, Department of Citizenship and Immigration

Peter MacDougall

It would make us less responsive—

6:10 p.m.

Conservative

Rick Dykstra Conservative St. Catharines, ON

Okay.

6:10 p.m.

Director General, Refugees, Department of Citizenship and Immigration

Peter MacDougall

—to changing conditions.

6:10 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative David Tilson

I have Ms. Chow next.

6:10 p.m.

NDP

Olivia Chow NDP Trinity—Spadina, ON

Am I correct in saying that somewhere in the regulations it would say that a committee would review the status of the designated countries periodically, in the same way you have a temporary-stay-of-removal committee?

I guess the regulation will come later, but you're prepared to have that say-so regarding an ongoing review?

6:10 p.m.

Director General, Refugees, Department of Citizenship and Immigration

Peter MacDougall

I think at this time it would be premature to judge the regulation. What we've put forward so far is to suggest the minister can de-designate.

My understanding is that the minister will return with regulations close to the pre-publication period, for the discussion.

6:10 p.m.

NDP

Olivia Chow NDP Trinity—Spadina, ON

Can you say that again? Can you speak a bit louder? I couldn't really hear you.

6:10 p.m.

Director General, Refugees, Department of Citizenship and Immigration

Peter MacDougall

Are you asking me if we can put a piece in the regulations about having the advisory panel review on a regular basis?

6:10 p.m.

NDP

Olivia Chow NDP Trinity—Spadina, ON

Yes, I think that was the intention, that that's what you're planning to do anyway—

6:10 p.m.

Director General, Refugees, Department of Citizenship and Immigration

Peter MacDougall

I think it would make it specific in the regulation.

6:10 p.m.

NDP

Olivia Chow NDP Trinity—Spadina, ON

—that you're going to review it, and if you say so, it just gives comfort to people that once a country is designated, it's not going to be there forever. So it's just making something explicit that you're planning to do anyway.

6:10 p.m.

Director General, Refugees, Department of Citizenship and Immigration

Peter MacDougall

We can certainly consider it. I can't commit to putting it in at this point. We have to consult our minister.

6:10 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative David Tilson

The light has gone out.

We'll go to Dr. Wong and then Monsieur Coderre.

6:10 p.m.

Conservative

Alice Wong Conservative Richmond, BC

I withdraw my comment.