Evidence of meeting #23 for Citizenship and Immigration in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was intelligence.
A recording is available from Parliament.
NDP
Don Davies NDP Vancouver Kingsway, BC
Okay.
Well, I'm curious. I want to focus a bit on the visitor visas, what we call TRVs, temporary resident visas. I'll call them visitor visas. In your experience, do you feel that the officers in the high commissions and embassies do not have sufficient time to check the documents before they make a decision on a visitor visa?
Spokeperson, Centre for Immigration Policy Reform
Well, on the visitor's visa, they're certainly going to have to check the documents. What I was referring to more was where someone's coming here permanently, as a permanent resident, checking that person's documents.
There is a problem in checking the documents of temporary workers because they might also submit fraudulent documents. I particularly stress, though, the desirability of having a full interview for people coming to live here and stay here, permanent residents.
Spokeperson, Centre for Immigration Policy Reform
No. It used to be fairly standard, but now for resource reasons we just don't do much of it, and I think that should be reinstated. But keeping a Canada-based officer and his family overseas, Mr. Davies, is very expensive. It doesn't come cheaply, and if we're to do it, we've got to provide more resources if we maintain the current levels of immigration.
NDP
Don Davies NDP Vancouver Kingsway, BC
Would you suggest we maintain that sufficient level of resources of Canadian-trained people overseas?
Spokeperson, Centre for Immigration Policy Reform
Well, we either increase the level of Canada-based staff so we can do a more thorough job of looking at people or we should reduce the numbers to what resources are available.
Not be able to do the job adequately is a risk to Canadians, and it's sometimes unfair to the immigrants themselves. They don't know enough about what they're coming into.
NDP
Don Davies NDP Vancouver Kingsway, BC
Certainly, and I think you testified that you thought implementing exit controls would be quite expensive, but it's something you would suggest we do. Do I have your testimony correct?
Spokeperson, Centre for Immigration Policy Reform
That is true, not just so we know who's in the country who is supposed to have left, but in the case of permanent residents waiting to get their Canadian citizenship, we know a lot of them don't put in the requisite residence period in Canada and claim that they have, and it's very hard to check up. This would also deal with that problem very effectively.
NDP
Don Davies NDP Vancouver Kingsway, BC
Mr. Collacott, dealing with permanent resident applications, if I have your testimony right, if I am hearing you, you're telling us that they don't really have time to check documents thoroughly because they have so many other things to do and they're not conducting face-to-face interviews in all cases. Yet these are the people making decisions on who's going to be a permanent resident to our country. Is that not concerning to you?
Spokeperson, Centre for Immigration Policy Reform
All the documents are checked. The question is, though, if you get a document that you think is fraudulent, whether you have the time to follow that up and check with the institution that's supposed to have issued it. I don't think any document goes unchecked.
I think to do things as thoroughly as we should, we need to give those visa officers more time. They often spend their time making sure that if they say no, they can defend it. I think there should be more time. The Auditor General says more time should be spent on checking out applications that are approved.
NDP
Don Davies NDP Vancouver Kingsway, BC
I want to nail this down, because this is your testimony, sir.
Are you saying that visa officers making decisions on permanent resident applications do not have time to go and check out the veracity of the documents?
Spokeperson, Centre for Immigration Policy Reform
They will do as good a check as they can, but if you have a fraudulent document, it often takes time if you really want to try to get to the root of the problem. Sometimes visa officers will have to go over to the institution themselves. They certainly will do a visual check of all the documents as best they can, but they do not have time to do as thorough a check as we should be doing, especially with the very high levels of fraudulent documents that are submitted at a lot of our posts in developing countries. Some of our largest posts get a lot of fraudulent documents.
NDP
Don Davies NDP Vancouver Kingsway, BC
So do you have a concern that our visa officers abroad do not have sufficient time to check as thoroughly into fraudulent documents as you would like them to have?
NDP
Don Davies NDP Vancouver Kingsway, BC
And you are also concerned that they are not doing the number of face-to-face interviews that would be required to have, I guess, an acceptable level of security, in your mind. Is that a fair summary of your testimony?
NDP
Don Davies NDP Vancouver Kingsway, BC
Okay.
Last, if I have your testimony correct, you said a considerable number of terrorists, terrorist sympathizers, and criminals enter Canada through the refugee system. I think every year we let in about 13,000 refugees. That is my memory; I stand to be corrected on that. How many terrorists, terrorist sympathizers, and criminals out of those 13,000 refugee visas do you say come in annually?
Spokeperson, Centre for Immigration Policy Reform
The number would be very small compared to the total flow. I can't give you an exact figure. I did give the example, though, that of 25 identified terrorists—
NDP
Don Davies NDP Vancouver Kingsway, BC
I know you gave an example, Mr. Collacott, but you said “a considerable number”. I want to know what that number is if you're branding it as “considerable”? What is that number, sir?
Spokeperson, Centre for Immigration Policy Reform
Well, 25 at the time was a considerable number. It's a minuscule part of the total flow, and I want to make that clear. Most refugee claimants are not criminals or terrorist supporters. I did give the example also that—
Conservative
The Chair Conservative David Tilson
I'm afraid that's it, sir. Mr. Collacott, we have to move on.
It's Mr. Hsu's turn. Welcome to the committee, sir.
Liberal
Ted Hsu Liberal Kingston and the Islands, ON
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
Thank you for being with us today, Mr. Collacott.
I want to follow in somewhat the same vein as Mr. Davies by asking you for some more details about the idea of reducing immigration so that in your view the level of immigration is commensurate with the resources available to check on immigrants. If the resources that are available to immigration officers were kept constant, what would your recommendation be in terms of reducing immigration? Would you reduce immigration by 10% or 30%? What sorts of numbers are we talking about here? I'm trying to find out some details.
Spokeperson, Centre for Immigration Policy Reform
If we're basing it on the resources available, I'd have to study that a bit. But based on Canadian labour market needs, I would say probably—and this is a ballpark figure and it will vary with the state of the economy—we could get by quite well on half the number we're bringing in now. The reason I say that is that some of the best research shows that if we made better use of our own resources, we wouldn't need to bring in so many people.
As a member of the NDP, Olivia Chow said when the government announced new measures at the end of January—and some of them were very good—the federal government would serve Canadians better by training people out of work at home before looking abroad to fill labour needs. She was dead on. We shouldn't stop immigration, but we should base it on where we can't fill labour shortages ourselves. We should look at that first and then see where we need immigration. We're not doing that. Immigration has become an end in itself.
Liberal
Ted Hsu Liberal Kingston and the Islands, ON
I'd like to focus on your point about insufficient resources being available to evaluate potential permanent residents. Can you name some specific countries where you think we should be significantly reducing immigration, whether it's 50% or more?
Spokeperson, Centre for Immigration Policy Reform
No, I wouldn't specify specific countries, because if a person is a good immigrant, it doesn't matter where they come from, as long as they have the capacity to integrate into our labour market and into our society. My wife is an immigrant from Vietnam, and I'm quite in favour of getting people from all over the world. But, no, I wouldn't recommend particular countries where we shouldn't—