Evidence of meeting #33 for Citizenship and Immigration in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was refugees.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Martin Collacott  Spokeperson, Centre for Immigration Policy Reform
Peter Showler  Director, Refugee Forum, Human Rights Research and Education Centre, University of Ottawa
Noa Mendelsohn Aviv  Director, Equality Program, Canadian Civil Liberties Association
Julie Taub  Immigration and Refugee Lawyer, As an Individual
Nathalie Des Rosiers  General Counsel, Canadian Civil Liberties Association
Toni Skarica  Crown Attorney, Ministry of the Attorney General of Ontario
Debbie Douglas  Executive Director, Ontario Council of Agencies Serving Immigrants (OCASI)
Francisco Rico-Martinez  Regional Director, Toronto, Ontario Council of Agencies Serving Immigrants (OCASI)

6:05 p.m.

NDP

Alain Giguère NDP Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC

A point of order, Mr. Chair.

I would appreciate it if we could listen to the answer rather than having the hon. member constantly interrupt the witness. I would like a modicum of order. When a question is asked, we have to let the witness answer it rather than debate it.

6:05 p.m.

Conservative

Rick Dykstra Conservative St. Catharines, ON

It's not a debate—

6:05 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative David Tilson

Well, it's a valid point, although I don't think it was a question.

Mr. Dykstra has the floor.

6:05 p.m.

Conservative

Rick Dykstra Conservative St. Catharines, ON

I want to ask a couple questions of Mr. Skarica.

If we can get those done, Ms. Douglas, I'll give you at least the rest of that time to respond.

Mr. Skarica, you haven't referred directly to Bill C-31. I wonder if you could, in terms the steps it takes to get at the issues you've brought forward today.

6:05 p.m.

Crown Attorney, Ministry of the Attorney General of Ontario

Toni Skarica

As I indicated, the major problem for the Canadian taxpayer is this $50,000 for every bogus refugee, of which virtually every one of them is from the European Union.

So the attraction of the bill, from what I can see, is that instead of taking three years or four years—and it has been longer for some of these people—you will have a process whereby people will be dealt with right away and leave. They won't come then, because right now they're coming because they know they can come here and say four words, “I am a refugee”, and all of a sudden they've got $50,000.

So that, hopefully, will.... They won't even be here, because for one or two months it's not worth it.

6:10 p.m.

Conservative

Rick Dykstra Conservative St. Catharines, ON

What sort of support do you get from the provincial government on these issues?

6:10 p.m.

Crown Attorney, Ministry of the Attorney General of Ontario

Toni Skarica

What I find astonishing is that not a single MPP, not a single one, of any party has said anything about this, and, in fact, not a single councillor in Hamilton has said anything about this, and they're paying the freight. I find that amazing.

I think part of it is political correctness, frankly, because they don't want to say...well, we don't want to come out and criticize the Hungarians, or, most of these people are Roma, and they don't want to use the word “Roma”, because they don't want to be condemned as being politically incorrect—probably by the people next to me, so.... I'm fortunate because I'm from central Europe. I'm from that area of the world.

The accused calls me racist, right from the beginning. He's using that card: “Oh, you're a racist, and that's why you're going after us”. No. They're criminals. They're serious criminals here—

6:10 p.m.

NDP

Jinny Sims NDP Newton—North Delta, BC

On a point of order, Chair—

6:10 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative David Tilson

Stop the clock, please.

6:10 p.m.

NDP

Jinny Sims NDP Newton—North Delta, BC

—I'm finding it very difficult to sit here and listen to some of the verbiage, which is not to the point. It is getting to the point where I find, as a parliamentarian, it's very hard for me to sit here and listen to some of that language.

6:10 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative David Tilson

Well, it's the joy of sitting on a committee. I don't think that's a valid point of order. Thank you.

Another point of order?

6:10 p.m.

Liberal

Kevin Lamoureux Liberal Winnipeg North, MB

No, actually, it was just to provide a comment.

I can appreciate the emotions and so forth. I just hope that Ms. Douglas and her companion will be provided an opportunity to respond because the non-question that was put forward, and so forth, but—

6:10 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative David Tilson

Look, this is emotional stuff. With due respect, I heard emotional issues on both sides, and Mr. Skarica is not out of order as far as I'm concerned.

Start the clock.

6:10 p.m.

Conservative

Rick Dykstra Conservative St. Catharines, ON

I just want to say to the point that I'd be happy to provide some time, but I also listened to the presentation and listened to all of the responses from both Francisco and Deb, so I did want to at least get the opportunity to put my perspective out there.

But I would like to offer up the time, and I'll do my best not to respond while you're speaking.

6:10 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative David Tilson

You've only got a minute left.

6:10 p.m.

Executive Director, Ontario Council of Agencies Serving Immigrants (OCASI)

Debbie Douglas

As I was saying, we believe that Bill C-11, as a negotiated compromise, is actually a good bill. I think that Mr. Skarica is conflating issues of trafficking with issues of refugee determination. We absolutely believe that Canada needs to have stronger responses to issues of trafficking and we congratulate the Ontario Attorney General's office for moving forward with this case and being as successful as it has been. But let's not set national policy so that we can go after traffickers coming from Hungary.

I think this is one of the concerns, that we continue to paint asylum seekers with this very broad brush and we believe that by demonizing people needing to get protection from Canada.... We couch it in economic terms and we couch it in language about people abusing our system—

6:10 p.m.

Conservative

Rick Dykstra Conservative St. Catharines, ON

I don't just couch it in economic terms, I also couch it in ways that Canadians deserve fair justice—

6:10 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative David Tilson

We're out of time and I'm going to have—

6:10 p.m.

Conservative

Rick Dykstra Conservative St. Catharines, ON

Thank you.

6:10 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative David Tilson

—Ms. Sims yelling at me if I don't start her.

You have until the bell rings.

6:10 p.m.

NDP

Jinny Sims NDP Newton—North Delta, BC

First of all, I don't see anything in this legislation that is going to fix the problems in Hungary and its penal system. We need to get that very clear.

The other thing that I want to get out there is this term of “bona fide refugees”. We have refugees and we have asylum seekers. When they come to our shore, whether or not they come with fraudulent documents via plane or ship, we don't actually have that determination until one has been made. So I don't want to use the language that everyone who comes is fraudulent or bogus.

Bill C-11 was praised by the then-minister and the current minister of immigration as a work of art, I will say—albeit those weren't the exact words—and yet it has not been implemented. So for me to go on to say that it's broken and, therefore, we have to fix it, when we haven't implemented a solution through the legal system, from a bill that went through our Parliament, is very hard for me to sit here and do.

I think that some of the rhetoric—and I'm going to use the word “rhetoric”—I have heard today is fearmongering. It leads people, if they were to listen to certain testimony, to think that everybody who comes on our shore, including the grandparents of many of us sitting here or relatives of many of us sitting here, has come here because they want to defraud the system, that all they've come here for is to bypass and use and abuse the system. I can tell you that I've worked with refugees over the last number of years who don't like getting money from the state, who get out and work. They work very hard and they get on; they get their education, and they become contributing members in this society. That's what Canada is.

6:15 p.m.

Conservative

Rick Dykstra Conservative St. Catharines, ON

You mean like Chungsen Leung?

6:15 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative David Tilson

Mr. Dykstra.

6:15 p.m.

NDP

Jinny Sims NDP Newton—North Delta, BC

Canada is a nation that is filled—

6:15 p.m.

Conservative

Rick Dykstra Conservative St. Catharines, ON

Yes, that's exactly—