Citizenship and Immigration Committee on May 7th, 2012

[Bernhard Brinkmann]

I would think so. I would think there's an incentive to come here because of the cash payments they receive here, which can last for several years.

I could also say I was involved in asylum dealings in a former life as a judge at the Administrative Court of Hamburg. There we were confronted with similar problems from other countries with refugee claims that were unfounded. We solved this problem in part by substituting the payments in cash with providing assistance in kind, like housing or clothing or food stamps and things like that.

[John Weston, Conservative, West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast—Sea to Sky Country, BC]

In fact we heard from the representative of Hungary. He said quite clearly that the social and welfare benefits were a major draw for people who could have otherwise chosen a neighbouring European country.

Let me just quote from the UNHCR, which has recognized the validity of providing faster processing for refugee claimants from designated countries of origin. The former UN High Commissioner for Refugees, António Guterres, has said:

...there are indeed safe countries of origin. There are indeed countries in which there is a presumption that refugee claims will probably be not as strong as in other countries.

So from the UNHCR perspective, it seems legitimate to accelerate these claims.

First, Your Excellency, could you comment on that?

Then, Anja, I'll come back to you for a comment.

[Bernhard Brinkmann]

Yes, I think a fair process but a quick one is a good solution. I think that's what we have done in the European Union and what we strive to do by providing more manpower to deal with these asylum seekers and so on.

If the process is up to standard, according to the Geneva Convention and according to our laws, then it being done in a shorter period of time could very much help in reducing those factors.

[John Weston, Conservative, West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast—Sea to Sky Country, BC]

Thank you.

Anja, would you care to comment on that question?

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

Unless Mr. Opitz yields his time....

[Christoph Ehrentraut]

I'll take this question.

[Ted Opitz, Conservative, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

Mr. Chair, I'll let him finish his question.

[Christoph Ehrentraut]

As has been said before, we don't have accelerated administrative procedures provided for by the legislation, except for airport procedures, but in the implementation of our legislation, it might well be that certain cases are processed faster than others, especially cases that don't show enough substance to the claim.

So it depends on the individual circumstances of the case. As I said before, there is no legal provision that obliges or enables us to have accelerated procedures.

[John Weston, Conservative, West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast—Sea to Sky Country, BC]

Sir, my colleague has stated that according to her research, countries like Ghana and Sierra Leone, I think she mentioned, were considered safe countries of origin, at least vis-à-vis some European countries.

So there seems to be a gap between that statement and yours.

[Christoph Ehrentraut]

No, I'm not aware of a gap. There are safe countries of origin, this is true, but except for the airport procedures, we are not obliged to treat these applications in accelerated procedures. We can do it in an individual case, but there is no legislation that obliges us to do it, except for the airport procedures.

[John Weston, Conservative, West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast—Sea to Sky Country, BC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

Go ahead.

[Ted Opitz, Conservative, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

Dzien dobry, pan Busiakiewicz. I just wanted to say that.

My friend John Weston here, who was just questioning, was also a graduate of Krakow University.

Ioana, it was you, I think, when we were talking about discrimination a little while ago, who made a distinction about “severe”. I would like to know, what is the scale you use to measure discrimination or persecution? Do you have a scale? Do you have a sense of measure on how you do this within member states?

Over to you, Madam.

[Ioana Patrascu]

Again, I'm sorry, but unfortunately we do not have information on how member states in general implement these provisions. We are not decision-makers, so we do not deal with individual cases.

These scales will need to be applied in each and every case based on the circumstances of that case. The severity will depend also on the personal circumstances of each applicant. They cannot be assessed in general terms.

At the level of the European Union, we deal with the general legislation, not with its implementation in individual cases. Therefore, I cannot tell you more than what I have already said. I'm sorry.

[Ted Opitz, Conservative, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

Okay. I would have thought there would have been a standard.

Now, in terms of a refugee claimant in any member state, if they arrive and do not provide their identity or you cannot confirm their identity, what do you do with that individual? Do you release them?

Can anybody answer that?

[Roland Brumberg]

My answer to that is it's not possible to keep somebody in detention for deportation.

[Ted Opitz, Conservative, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

I'm sorry, say that again, sir.

[Roland Brumberg]

It's not possible to keep somebody in detention for deportation if there is not a clear perspective of when the person can be deported from the country. If there is no idea about the nationality of the person, there might be difficulties in putting him in detention.

What you can do in order to check the nationality is try to analyze the spoken language. You can try to check documents that he has with him. You can try to present him to embassies of other states that you think could be the person's state of origin, and you have to go to...[Technical difficulty—Editor]

[Ted Opitz, Conservative, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

I lost the end of that. I hope you can hear me now.

You're telling me if you can't identify the person, then you release him. You immediately deport the person. If you're deporting the person, how long do you take to do that? Is it a month, two months, six months?

[Roland Brumberg]

The deportation is only possible if you have the country of origin that is willing to receive the person. If you can't determine his nationality, you're not able to deport him.

In German law, which I think is the same according to the return directive, detention for deportation is not allowed just to bring pressure on people to tell us who they are or where they came from. Detention is only allowed to facilitate the deportation procedure, in order to prevent that person from—

[Ted Opitz, Conservative, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

That is understood, but then what do you do with that person?

[Roland Brumberg]

We try to check, and the administration tries to find out who he is.

[Ted Opitz, Conservative, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

If you can't determine that, where does the person go? If you're not holding him, what do you allow that unidentified individual to do?

[Roland Brumberg]

The individual in Germany would get something that's called a duldung. It is a piece of paper that says the person can't be deported at the moment. It has to go to the foreigners administration in order to prolong the duration of the paper. This is necessary in order to get any social benefits. If the person doesn't help the administration in clearing his identity, there are some restrictions, as far as the amount of social benefits is concerned and as far as the possibility to work is concerned.

[Ted Opitz, Conservative, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

Do you give an unidentified person benefits? You don't know who this unidentified individual is, yet he is collecting benefits.