Evidence of meeting #5 for Citizenship and Immigration in the 41st Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was immigrants.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Senior Fellow, Fraser Institute, As an Individual
Sure. It means a transfer of income from the general taxpayer to the people whose parents are providing these services.
Senior Fellow, Fraser Institute, As an Individual
Why should we be subsidizing immigrants?
Liberal
Kevin Lamoureux Liberal Winnipeg North, MB
The point is simply recognizing that the parents, especially if you break it down, of immigrants do have a role to play through immigration. That's the point I was going to make.
When we make reference to immigrants stealing jobs, some of you give the impression that if we didn't have immigrants we would have more jobs or higher-paying jobs. I'll reflect on Manitoba. In Manitoba, there are certain industries that would not be healthy today if it were not for immigrants coming to the province of Manitoba. It's one of the reasons why, as a province, we have been doing well in the last decade. It's through the provincial nominee program and recognizing the important role that immigrants have to play in the economy, and it has allowed us to expand our economy. By expanding the economy, the per capita increases.
So would you at the very least acknowledge that there are certain industries across the country in which if we didn't have immigrants participating, there's a very good chance that those industries could have shrunk, maybe even possibly disappeared, and that takes away from the per capita? Would you at least acknowledge that there is some merit to that argument?
Economist, Global Economics Ltd., As an Individual
I think the problem is that the types of industries you're talking about, where you bring in a large number of people and generally from similar places, are not the industries of the future. These are usually the industries of the past and are having trouble attracting labour.
Liberal
Kevin Lamoureux Liberal Winnipeg North, MB
But these industries contribute to the GDP of our country, and that means the lifestyle of everyone improves.
Economist, Global Economics Ltd., As an Individual
All work contributes to the GDP of our country. The question is, which type of work contributes the most?
Liberal
Kevin Lamoureux Liberal Winnipeg North, MB
I want to pick up on the immigrant credentials. I think that's a serious problem. The federal government has to play a stronger role in working with the provinces to start getting provinces to recognize those doctors, those nurses, those engineers. if in fact, as I believe to be the case, there is a shortage of workers in those areas, we need those workers, but there's an issue of recognizing their credentials.
I look to you, Mr. Ben-Ami, in terms of whether you can provide a comment. Is there a stronger, more important role for Ottawa to play in getting credentials recognized?
President, Canadian Centre for Policy Studies
The issue of credentials recognition is exceptionally complicated, partly because of the different standards of training in different areas of the world and partly because for many professions governments actually don't issue credentials. They're part of trade and professional associations, and governments require these credentials, so the stakeholders involved are beyond governments.
I would say that the federal government probably has a role to play--and I think this is an excellent question, by the way--in perhaps convening some sort of a body made up of representatives from municipal governments, provincial governments, the federal government itself, and stakeholders to deal with this issue and perhaps to deal with some of the other issues I've raised. That would be my suggestion for what could be done.
Economist, Global Economics Ltd., As an Individual
Could I just add something?
I think it is important that the federal government have a role there. I think one of the issues that need to be addressed is getting pre-clearance on credentials before people come here so there isn't the problem that many people have of being admitted but once they get here not being able to pursue their own profession or trade.
President, Canadian Centre for Policy Studies
Mr. Lamoureaux, perhaps I could just say one very brief thing to follow up my comment.
The problem again--and I sound like a broken record--is that that is what we should be talking about today.
President, Canadian Centre for Policy Studies
But we're not talking about that. We're talking about this other thing that really, as my colleagues here have said quite rightly, is just a symptom of the bigger problem.
Liberal
Kevin Lamoureux Liberal Winnipeg North, MB
Yes, and I agree with you wholeheartedly on that. I'd rather be having meetings and discussions and dialogue on policy with the Minister of Immigration, quite frankly, than going through this process now.
Conservative
John Weston Conservative West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast—Sea to Sky Country, BC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you, Mr. Ben-Ami and Mr. Grady.
Dr. Grubel, I want to extend a special welcome. You come here as a former member of Parliament. Mr. Ben-Ami said a minute ago that you hit the nail on the head. That was said of you many times. You didn't care if it was popular or not popular to hit the nail on the head, but you did it, and you won great respect both in the riding that you represented, which I now represent, and across the country. So thank you for your service to Canada.
I want to steer us to backlogs. I think at least my own perspective on backlogs is that they produce a 3-D view for Canada. There is a distortion, in that the people who apply for immigration to Canada become perhaps different people by the time they find their place in the queue to be admitted. Second, there is a distaste, a bad reputation for Canada, in that we keep people waiting for so long. Third, it's a disadvantage that the best and the brightest may simply go elsewhere if they know that there are long waits.
So looking at these backlogs, our minister has attacked that problem head-on, and over strident opposition from the opposition parties has reduced the backlog in federal skilled workers programs. That's been established beyond doubt.
I'm wondering, starting with you, Dr. Grubel, if you can just look at the backlog issue, its reduction, and how successful this measure has been. And furthermore, what would the impact have been if the backlogs attending the federal skilled workers program had continued to grow?
Senior Fellow, Fraser Institute, As an Individual
As a politician, I was told never to answer a hypothetical question, and I will continue to do so.
I think these issues should just be chucked aside and we should concentrate on the question of whether we can pass legislation in this Parliament to say “We're sorry, guys who are in the lineup, we made a mistake. The previous government made a mistake. Here is your cheque back with interest. Apply again. Get yourself a job in Ottawa at the right pay, and we will consider your application.” That is what I think we should be doing. This fussing around over whether that backlog should be shortened, be allowed to increase, and how to go about it is all beside the point. If we want immigration policy that benefits you, me, the poor in our community, our society as a whole, this is what we ought to be doing. We should not be asking immigrants to come in just so that a corner-store grocer of Chinese origin can have more profits. Why should we as general taxpayers subsidize those kinds of activities?
Conservative
John Weston Conservative West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast—Sea to Sky Country, BC
So Dr. Grubel is going again to the bigger issue. I'd like to focus on this question of backlogs.
Mr. Grady.
Economist, Global Economics Ltd., As an Individual
I think you have a very good point. The situation was unsustainable under the old act where you had the “shall” clause that said they had to process all of these applications. The way they set it up with the points, if you got a minimum score, you were accepted. So the immigration policy was on autopilot.
At that point it could have ballooned to who knows what, so something had to be done. I'm not so sure that what they did was the best way to deal with it, because I think it's good to get as many applications as possible so you can pick the best immigrants from them. I think the problem is our selection system doesn't discriminate well enough, so maybe we should have a two-stage selection system in which you let everybody apply and then you pick the ones who are most appropriate and tell the others they can't come, instead of setting up minimum qualifications and then saying that whoever meets them is in the backlog and will be admitted. I think that is just a non-starter.
Conservative
John Weston Conservative West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast—Sea to Sky Country, BC
It's interesting that in the area of immigration it's almost impossible to focus on a specific issue, because there are so many interrelated ones. I recognize the conundrum. But you're saying, Mr. Grady, that we're in a better position if we don't have an unsustainable situation.
October 25th, 2011 / 11:50 a.m.
Economist, Global Economics Ltd., As an Individual
It would be much better.
Conservative
John Weston Conservative West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast—Sea to Sky Country, BC
Mr. Ben-Ami, would you like to comment?
President, Canadian Centre for Policy Studies
I don't think I can add anything more than my colleagues have already said.
