Citizenship and Immigration Committee on Sept. 26th, 2012

[Rathika Sitsabaiesan, NDP, Scarborough—Rouge River, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to both our witnesses.

My first question would be for you, Nathalie, if I may call you that. You were talking a lot about oversight and the need for oversight mechanisms. Can you share some specific incidents in which oversight and oversight mechanisms would have been helpful and may have prevented an incident from occurring?

You also mentioned gaps in accountabilities, and insufficiencies. Perhaps you could provide examples or expand on those, because you touched on them very briefly in your opening.

[Nathalie Des Rosiers]

Yes.

It's people who have been treated at the border in a way that would have been inappropriate—they were mishandled, or they suspect or think that they have been the subject of either racial profiling or social profiling—and they have concerns. They call CCLA. They call us and say, “What do I do?”, or they tell us that they witnessed somebody being very inappropriate with somebody else and it ought not to happen.

Generally we tell them to go to the website and fill out the complaint form there. One of the issues that arises is that this is a very internal complaint form, and many times their impression is that everything is being kind of washed over, that it takes a long time, that nothing is being done to change it. As a result, people who cross the border often will say that it has not improved—

[Rathika Sitsabaiesan, NDP, Scarborough—Rouge River, ON]

Is the website you mentioned the CBSA website?

[Nathalie Des Rosiers]

Yes, it's the CBSA website.

[Rathika Sitsabaiesan, NDP, Scarborough—Rouge River, ON]

Okay.

[Nathalie Des Rosiers]

They have a complaint form that you can fill out.

I think our suggestion is that it's just good governance, good policy, to ensure that if you have extensive powers given to an organization, there is a way in which the regime self-corrects. You have oversight mechanisms. You can indeed have a body—it does not need to be a new body, it could be an expansion—that on occasion will draw attention to a failure to obey procedures. It's helpful to have oversight. It's helpful for people to think that they've been treated fairly and that the process is fair and reasonable, is not from the inside, and has some external validation.

We have crossed that bridge on pretty much all security and policing in Canada, and this is a holdout. There's no reason for it. We should just do it because that's good governance. It's essential. It helps the agency itself and it helps people to have more confidence in it.

[Rathika Sitsabaiesan, NDP, Scarborough—Rouge River, ON]

In your view, or from your stats, CBSA seems to be the only organization that doesn't have this oversight.

[Nathalie Des Rosiers]

Yes. There are varying degrees of oversight. In some there is more civilian oversight; some have fewer powers, some have more. Certainly we have some comments on the best oversight mechanism.

For us, I think it would be important for it not to be only complaints driven, because many people are afraid of complaining about the CBSA. They are afraid that their names will be called up the next time they come up, and then they will have to wait way longer.

The idea is ensuring that indeed there is some good oversight. It is appropriate in this context. We've done it elsewhere. It's good for governance. We should just do it.

[Rathika Sitsabaiesan, NDP, Scarborough—Rouge River, ON]

Okay, thank you.

We were talking about detention a little bit. I know that I don't have much more time, just one minute, so do you want to talk about some of the alternatives to detention, especially for children?

[Nathalie Des Rosiers]

I think the detention of children raises violations of the convention, and it's just not good policy. It may impact their ability to fully adapt to Canada. I think any alternative, bail or any mechanisms that save money and comply.... We just have to be more creative.

We have done that in other sectors. We're doing it in the criminal justice system constantly. It's not perfect, but I think the idea of being innovative in this context by recognizing the need for security as well as the protection of individual rights and the fact that there is a real loss, in detention, in the adaptation of people to Canada, and so on. It's a loss of their lives for years.

[Rathika Sitsabaiesan, NDP, Scarborough—Rouge River, ON]

When you spoke of children, what would be the ages?

[Nathalie Des Rosiers]

Under the Convention on the Rights of the Child, it is 18.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

Thank you.

Go ahead, Mr. Weston.

[John Weston, Conservative, West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast—Sea to Sky Country, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I want to welcome my colleagues from the bar, Mr. Waldman and Ms. Des Rosiers.

Auschwitz survivor Viktor Frankl said that freedom without responsibility is dangerous—meaning that a balance is always required.

I would like to put the following question to someone who is always protecting rights: What is the responsibility of our Minister of Citizenship and Immigration as far as terrorism goes while we are trying to keep our doors open to the world?

I have a question that is perhaps somewhat different for you: What needs to be done for our security?

Mr. Waldman, I will ask you the same question afterwards.

[Nathalie Des Rosiers]

Certainly.

All of the Canadian Civil Liberties Association's positions recognize that it is always a matter of reconciling various interests. Of course, protecting the security of Canadians is a key interest.

We believe that security is protected through the law and the respect for the rule of law. Incorrect information doesn't help anyone. We must ensure that the processes are well thought out, that they have accountability guarantees and that they are consistent with the imperatives of protecting both the rights and the security of Canadians.

If I were the minister, the first thing I would do is implement an accountability regime. Such a regime is a source of both information and accountability that will protect rights and the achievement of goals at the same time.

[John Weston, Conservative, West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast—Sea to Sky Country, BC]

I apologize, but we have very little time.

Mr. Waldman, as a lawyer involved in rights protection, do you have any specific suggestions with regard to terrorism?

[Lorne Waldman]

I deal with a lot of different files. I see the CBSA going after individuals when it makes absolutely no sense to do so, if only because they can.

Quite frankly, I'm profoundly disturbed by the huge amount of wasted resources. I could give you an example of one that just pops into my mind. It was a gentleman from Iran who was a supporter of an organization called the Kurdish Democratic Party of Iran, which is trying to get autonomy for the Kurds in Iran and was opposed to the regime from which we just broke off diplomatic relations, the Iranian government. Surprisingly, CBSA decided that they wanted to deport this man back to Iran because he supports an organization that is opposed to the Iranian government. Why would we try to do that? The organization has never been accused of involvement in any terrorism activities at all, of any shape, and there was no allegation that he had committed any acts of violence or terrorism.

I'm just saying this because what we see time and time again is CBSA officials going after people just because they can, when there is no rational reason, and expending huge amounts of resources on cases when they shouldn't. There has to be—

[John Weston, Conservative, West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast—Sea to Sky Country, BC]

Mr. Waldman, thank you for your suggestion. My question was, what would you suggest the minister do?

That organization is in this grey area. It has been rightly or wrongly associated with terrorist activities in the past, and so there may have been unfairness, but we can't get into that individual case.

What would you say to the minister to protect us against terrorism?

[Lorne Waldman]

We need to ensure that there is a quality control at the highest levels at CBSA to ensure that people are going after the appropriate cases and not individuals they shouldn't go after.

I see a huge waste of resources. I can assure you that I could sit down with you in a totally non-partisan way and give you 10 examples of cases that are costing the government hundreds of thousands of dollars, and that when you've heard about the cases, you will pull your hair out.

[John Weston, Conservative, West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast—Sea to Sky Country, BC]

If I were the minister, I would feel that you have not offered much help, as you have not suggested anything specific.

Can I ask the following, Ms. Des Rosiers? As far as visitors go, the Conservative government has accepted more of them than before. There is a 13% increase compared with the 2005 statistics. So, what can we do to continue to invite people, but protect ourselves against terrorism at the same time?

[Nathalie Des Rosiers]

I think that protection against terrorism is always a matter of information.

The security service of Canada, CSIS, is there. I think we continue to invest and ensure they are working to the best of their abilities.

You will not be able to protect against terrorism without some intelligence, some form of knowledge about what's going on. You just need better knowledge, continued vigilance, and continued participation in international law.

There's no solution. You can't close your doors, because we live in a worldwide world. You just keep supporting the mechanisms you have, ensuring that they work well. That's why we're suggesting to improve them by adding accountability around them—

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

Sorry, I'm going to have to close the door.

Mr. Menegakis, unless you want to give your time to.... Go ahead, sir.

[John Weston, Conservative, West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast—Sea to Sky Country, BC]

No, it's okay.

Thank you.

[Costas Menegakis, Conservative, Richmond Hill, ON]

Do you want to finish?

[John Weston, Conservative, West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast—Sea to Sky Country, BC]

No. Thank you.