Citizenship and Immigration Committee on Oct. 1st, 2012

[Salim Mansur]

The cultural context from which the population is coming is a cultural context that is in many ways antithetical to the values that represent a liberal democracy such as ours or those in western Europe. The overarching issue is that these numbers are challenging our own system, our own culture.

Liberal democracy is a culture. I don't think too many of us talk about this. I'm here talking about this as a political philosopher academic, sir. I'm sharing with you my concern.

We are a culture, a liberal democracy, and that culture is based upon certain very fundamental assumptions. Those assumptions are unique in history. The critical core assumption is about individual freedom.

Now, there are cultures, in fact most of the cultures around the world, that are not liberal democratic.

[Rick Dykstra, Conservative, St. Catharines, ON]

Agreed, but you make one assumption: the big core assumption you make in your philosophical argument, at least from my perspective, is that our liberal democracy, what it is to be Canadian, cannot withstand the input from the Muslim community from around the world.

I would argue that the reason we are so good as a country, and why one billion out of seven billion want to come here, is that—I guess this is where you and I fundamentally disagree—we actually have a core belief, a core understanding, of what it is to be Canadian. There are one billion around this world who seek to entertain that same kind of lifestyle, that same kind of belief, that same kind of democracy, that same kind of charter of rights and freedoms that we enjoy here.

[Salim Mansur]

You are speaking to one of them sitting right across from you, sir. I don't know whether you know the other side from where the demand comes, but I know it from the other side. That's why I said in my conclusion that I know what the opposite is and why I so greatly value what is Canada. What I greatly value is liberal democracy based on—

[Rick Dykstra, Conservative, St. Catharines, ON]

That's the dichotomy for me, because you are saying that others don't have the ability to become Canadians, as we see it, but you have that ability to do so.

[Salim Mansur]

No, I say it because it is a question of where we have gone in the last 40 years. In 2011 we celebrated the 40th anniversary of the official multiculturalism policy. I've written a book about it. I would invite you to read that book, sir.

[Rick Dykstra, Conservative, St. Catharines, ON]

I do share some of your views on multiculturalism. It's just that we don't share the same view on—

[Salim Mansur]

Maybe not, but that's what liberal democracy is all about.

[Rick Dykstra, Conservative, St. Catharines, ON]

That's why we end up having—

[Salim Mansur]

You invite me to share that view. It is not about your imposing one value and my imposing another value. That's to be debated.

[Rick Dykstra, Conservative, St. Catharines, ON]

Your concern, though, is that the Muslim community is going to impose a value structure and system here that will overreach, overarch, and overtake ours as it currently exists.

[Salim Mansur]

I would argue that one would have to be an ostrich not to realize what is happening around the world. One would have to be an ostrich not to understand that a demand is coming from the organized Muslim community for its values to be accepted in a liberal democracy, values that are totally incompatible with a liberal democracy.

I'm referring to the demands of sharia implementation. We came very close to having that implemented or opened up in Ontario. That's what's happening in Europe. This is not an isolated thing. As I pointed out to you, sir, we might disagree on the issue, but this is a global phenomenon. We are discussing it globally. We are not discussing it only within Canada. We cannot say that Canada is an island unto itself and is unaffected by this global phenomenon.

[The Vice-Chair (Ms. Jinny Jogindera Sims), NDP, Jinny Sims]

Thank you, Salim.

There is less than half a minute and I know my other colleague is anxious to ask a question.

[Chungsen Leung, Conservative, Willowdale, ON]

Salim, I want to focus on the security of Canada's immigration system. I understand that if one looks ahead to the next generation, the multiculturalism side of it is how we socio-engineer our society. We've done that in the past. Since 1971, with multiculturalism, we have been socio-engineering the future of Canada.

What I want to focus on is the cultural sensitivities that this study—

[The Vice-Chair (Ms. Jinny Jogindera Sims), NDP, Jinny Sims]

I hate to do this to you, Mr. Leung, but we're at 7:08, so I would ask you to make your question very succinct.

[Chungsen Leung, Conservative, Willowdale, ON]

My question is succinct. My surname can be pronounced and translated about eight different ways. Muslim surnames could be Mohammed, Mohammad, Muhamed, or Muhamad. How do we blend that into our system so that we can have security in the system to know whether a person who is coming in can be uniquely identified as a terrorist or someone who has committed war crimes?

[The Vice-Chair (Ms. Jinny Jogindera Sims), NDP, Jinny Sims]

Would you please keep your answer very brief? We have gone well over the time for this segment.

[Salim Mansur]

Very briefly, sir, my answer would be that liberal democracy respects individual rights. Your problem of how the names are pronounced is part of a learning process.

Liberal democracy's core value is the defence of individual rights, respect for individual rights. Counter to liberal democracy is group and collective understanding and rights. That's where the fundamental conflict is, sir.

[The Vice-Chair (Ms. Jinny Jogindera Sims), NDP, Jinny Sims]

Thank you very much.

We're now going to proceed with my colleague, Mylène Freeman. Welcome to the committee.

[Mylène Freeman, NDP, Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Professor Mansur, I'm not quite understanding how you're linking a policy of multiculturalism and openness and inclusion to security threats. Could you draw that causal link for me? I am seeing multiculturalism and inclusion as part of what liberal democratic values are, and part of what this country is about, not the opposite. I think the opposite, policies of exclusion, can breed intolerance. Could you please explain to me how you're making this link?

[Salim Mansur]

I would very respectfully say that the problem you raise is particularly the problem that has come about in the last 40 years of bending the rules of liberal democracy, which is very respectful and inclusive of individuals and saying that we're not going to say something about others on the basis of their collective cultural values and rights. We have this problem in Quebec, if you're following what has happened there with the bill dealing with the hijab and niqab. This has been a huge problem in Europe.

Is that a question of simply a cultural value or are there security implications? We have had this debate here. I have appeared at the committee and have talked about uncovering the face for passport photographs and identification, and so on. That is part of the security issue that you're talking about.

Our police forces and our security forces are running into problems daily. I have spoken to a lot of police officers, some of whom are my friends. They deal with this problem on a daily basis.

Yes, there are cultural sensitivities and they are protected by the multicultural values. That's where the drift is and where the problem is. This is what I'm putting my finger on.

[Mylène Freeman, NDP, Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel, QC]

In an interview with Professor Phyllis Chesler, when asked what you think Canada's immigration policy should be, you answered that it's a complicated subject, and said “My own view is there should be some sort of moratorium on immigration from the Muslim world given the nature of politics and culture exported from there to the West.” You mean things that aren't compatible with liberal democracy, not actually Muslim culture, given that you are yourself Muslim. It seems you are saying that all Muslims will not be compatible in liberal democratic value systems.

I'd like you to explain or elaborate if that's your view, because unfortunately I just don't see how that is the case.

[Salim Mansur]

Honourable member, I can explain to you by analogy, if the time permits.

The people who understood the problem of communism were people from within the belly of communism. I can remind you of names like Natan Sharansky, Alexander Solzhenitsyn, Václav Havel, and others. This was a global struggle, and it was a struggle that was in a sense a life and death struggle. There were people inside the Soviet Union—as there are now inside China, Liu Xiaobo and others—who understood what was at stake.

It is not that the whole Muslim world is completely driven underground. There's a huge struggle going on right now as I speak. The problem and the challenge is that organized mainstream Islam is incompatible with liberal democracy, and we as a society have decided not to question these things.

[Mylène Freeman, NDP, Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel, QC]

In this interview you do talk about the fact that, for instance, in the Shafia case, these girls didn't have access to resources. Isn't the problem really our giving access to these girls and making sure they have safe spaces and places to get out of these situations, like any other Canadian girl would, that are culturally appropriate, that are Muslim women's centres, or something like that, somewhere where they can go and feel comfortable? It's just like we do for aboriginal women, and it needs to be done for aboriginal women. Girls like myself, who have generations in Canada...I still have friends, like me, who come under abuse as women.

This is something that's more about resources and not actually about Muslims. If you could maybe talk about some of the resources we need for addressing these kinds of issues....

[Salim Mansur]

I'm a father of a beautiful young girl, and I hope she will grow up to be a very strong woman like yourself, Madam, and will have a role to play in Canada. I want her to be that. I want her to be a free and brave woman. But I wouldn't like to see what has happened to a woman who wanted to be brave and like any other Canadian; she was strangulated—Aqsa Parvez. She just wanted to be a Canadian woman.

Every aspect of what is Canada was ignored for Aqsa Parvez, was ignored for the girls in the Shafia family, and there are innumerable such things. That is the fundamental contradiction that we have brought upon ourselves. We have contorted our society. The Europeans are now facing up to it, and some of us will have to face up to it. Maybe you members are reluctant to face up to it for all sorts of political considerations.

Some of us have to speak out. Ironically, as a Muslim I'm speaking out here, reminding you that this is a deep struggle that is going on. This is a 1,400-year struggle. When you tell me that this is not about Islam or about Muslim...that it's simply about resources, well, that's a patchwork answer. Yes, we have symptoms; it's like an illness. You have to deal with it with aspirin or with other medication. So you have to have resource centres, but that doesn't answer the fundamental problem that we are importing into our country.

I only raise the issue of Islam, but there are all sorts of other issues.

[Mylène Freeman, NDP, Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel, QC]

Right.

I'm glad you mentioned the Bouchard-Taylor report a few minutes ago. You know the difference between secularism and laïcité that Charles Taylor drew. Maybe give a quick explanation of that for the committee.

I don't know how much time I have.