Citizenship and Immigration Committee on Oct. 15th, 2012

[Roxanne James, Conservative, Scarborough Centre, ON]

That's unfortunate. I was hoping to get some answers on that.

Let me try a different question that maybe you can answer.

How successful do you think Canada has been in preventing criminals, such as members of the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine, from coming in? How successful has Canada been up to this point in preventing people like them from crossing our borders?

[Lutz Oette]

Well, I don't know the ins and outs of Canada's system. You have the figures in the annual reports of the war crimes program, and this is a matter of concern for you.

I think what is important is that you develop a coherent policy that has both elements, screening and prosecution, where someone is found in Canada itself and cannot be extradited.

[Roxanne James, Conservative, Scarborough Centre, ON]

Okay, thank you.

I understand you don't have a specific recommendation, just better screening. Obviously, that's why we're here. We want to make sure that we can better screen people so this situation doesn't happen.

I will refer to your remarks to the committee. You were mentioning that possibly in some situations, or maybe in all situations, Canada should try war criminals or people tied to terrorism here in Canada. I want to refer to the specific case of Mahmoud Mohammad Issa Mohammad costing Canadian taxpayers $3 million. Do you think we should go further and try someone like him if there were any charges to be laid? Do you think we should put more money out? Do you think it's the responsibility of Canada to foot the bill?

[Lutz Oette]

I think it's an internationally shared responsibility. The more money you spend on specialized and dedicated units that are capable of investigating and prosecuting international criminals, the more effective the international system will be. As I mentioned, that would also act as a deterrent in the long run, hopefully. It requires a coherent policy and a shared burden.

[Roxanne James, Conservative, Scarborough Centre, ON]

With regard to the different types of immigration streams, do you see one stream over another that would cause the most issues of security threat in your country maybe, but also here in Canada? Do you think there's a specific immigration stream that poses the most threat?

[Lutz Oette]

What would you mean by that?

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

I think you're going to be saved by the bell. Ms. James, we'll try, but you're over.

[Roxanne James, Conservative, Scarborough Centre, ON]

Examples of different types of immigration streams would be family reunification, asylum seekers coming in without any identification on them, foreign workers, those types of things. Do you see a potential for the greatest threat to Canadian security in one immigration stream over another?

[Lutz Oette]

I wouldn't be able to comment on that, I'm afraid.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

Okay.

Madam Groguhé.

[Sadia Groguhé, NDP, Saint-Lambert, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I would like to thank our two witnesses for their presentations.

My first question is for Mr. Oette.

You have significant experience in defending human rights. You have worked with a number of research institutions and organizations to defend human rights, both in Germany and Great Britain. You have just published a study in The International Journal of Human Rights on the difficulties faced by governments with respect to implementing regulations prohibiting torture.

What do you think governments should do when the removal of a foreign criminal involved in crime is likely to expose that person to torture? Could you please give me a specific opinion on this matter?

[Lutz Oette]

I'm not sure that I understood the question correctly. What do I think about foreigners who....

[Sadia Groguhé, NDP, Saint-Lambert, QC]

When a foreign criminal involved in crime is here, in Canada, how should we, as a government, react to that person's deportation or extradition in order to prevent him or her from being tortured in another country? What recommendations would you make in that regard?

[Lutz Oette]

Of course, it depends on the case at hand.

Once you confirm the initial suspicion that someone may have been involved in international crimes, the question is whether there is an extradition treaty in place. If you cannot extradite him or her, then of course there is the prohibition of refoulement, and you have to keep him or her in the country. I think that's where the crux lies, because that's the situation where Canada has to be able to prosecute, and that has obviously been a problem.

[Sadia Groguhé, NDP, Saint-Lambert, QC]

Okay, very well.

You mentioned the issue of the international commitment of governments with respect to international law. You also suggested that deportation was not the best way to deal with crime.

Could you please expand on that and give us some specific ideas that could be used to make recommendations?

[Lutz Oette]

I specifically referred to Canada's obligation under international law. It says very clearly that for international crimes states either have to extradite or prosecute. You cannot simply deport someone who is suspected of these crimes to another country. The overriding idea is that they should face justice, be it in the country they are returned to, or in Canada for that matter.

That's what the committee against torture said as well.

[Sadia Groguhé, NDP, Saint-Lambert, QC]

You contrast the issues of extradition and deportation. Do you think that means that, with respect to crime, it is better and more conceivable for a government to extradite rather than deport? Could you please provide some clarification on this?

[Rick Dykstra, Conservative, St. Catharines, ON]

I have a point of order.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

Stop the clock, please. Go ahead on your point of order, Mr. Dykstra.

[Rick Dykstra, Conservative, St. Catharines, ON]

I know that Bill C-43 will be coming fairly quickly, but I just want to be clear that this meeting is related to the study on securing our country.

[Sadia Groguhé, NDP, Saint-Lambert, QC]

I am simply coming back to the topic mentioned by our witness, and I would like clarification about the specific themes he shared with the committee. I'm not really referring to Bill C-43.

[Rick Dykstra, Conservative, St. Catharines, ON]

Okay.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

We are talking about security, and I think her questions are borderline but they're relevant.

Go ahead. We'll start the clock again.

[Sadia Groguhé, NDP, Saint-Lambert, QC]

Could you please answer, Mr. Oette?

[Lutz Oette]

Yes, I think a deportation policy alone would be insufficient in these circumstances, when we talk about those suspected of international crimes.