Citizenship and Immigration Committee on Oct. 27th, 2011

[Ali Mokhtari]

Do I have to stop?

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

No. You have a few seconds.

[Ali Mokhtari]

I have a website, parscanada.com, that receives between 10,000 to 15,000 clicks a day. I feel that Canada's image has been severely damaged by this policy of keeping people waiting in Damascus and not processing their files.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

Thank you, sir.

You mentioned some documents. I would worry about you presenting them to the committee, because there are probably names there and that would cause problems with our privacy legislation. In questions from the committee members, perhaps you can speak in general terms.

[Ali Mokhtari]

Sure.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

Mr. Atkinson, you have up to eight minutes. Thank you for coming this morning.

[Michael Atkinson, President, Canadian Construction Association]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, for the opportunity to present before this committee.

The Canadian Construction Association has approximately 17,000 individual member firms from coast to coast to coast in Canada. Construction accounts for some 7% of Canada's GDP. Our members are involved in the non-residential sector of the industry. Essentially, they build everything but single-family dwellings. They build Canada's infrastructure, both private and public.

Before specifically addressing the backlog situation, I'd like to set the stage with some of the context we're looking at.

As many of you know, our industry experienced chronic skilled labour shortages in many regions of this country prior to the onset of the recession. While these shortages were somewhat lessened during the downturn in 2009, employment within the construction sector is again back at historic highs. In fact, in July of this year, we set a new record for overall employment within the sector and have surpassed our pre-recession recorded highs.

An international study just this past year projected that Canada's construction market will be the fifth largest in the world by 2020, behind only the U.S., India, China, and Japan. Not surprisingly, our future labour supply is becoming a primary concern--if not the major concern--of our industry going forward.

The Construction Sector Council, which provides labour market information for both Human Resources and Skills Development Canada and Citizenship and Immigration Canada, estimates that the construction sector will be short some 325,000 workers, due to retirements, by 2019. Less than 50% of that needed amount, it projects, will come from traditional domestic sources.

In other words, we're going to be short by some 50%-plus, and we're going to have to look for those workers to come from abroad. Doing the math on that, if you project out to 2019, it means we're going to have to find approximately 20,000 new foreign skilled workers annually through immigration.

According to the Department of Citizenship and Immigration, there are approximately a million applicants presently involved in the backlog. The decision to cap levels under that program should be viewed as a temporary measure only. We're of the strong view that if additional resources are required to free up that backlog, that is what Canada should be investing in, to try to address that backlog. Indeed, we feel so strongly about this issue that we presented before the House of Commons Standing Committee on Finance as part of the pre-budget consultations and made that one of our three points.

But expedited processing is only part of the solution. I would say that the other part, and probably the most important one, involves reforming the existing system. Here is where I'm going to sound a bit contradictory. While on one hand we are saying “let's expedite the backlog under the federal skilled worker program”, I'm now about to tell you how the federal skilled worker program doesn't work for our industry currently. The primary reason for that is the current points system. Frankly, because the majority of the points are given for post-secondary education and language proficiency, the kinds of workers we are looking for just won't get the 67 out of 100 points they require.

Now, there are consultations under way right now to improve that. The minister has gone on record as wanting to make changes to the points system to make it more trades-friendly. But frankly, the system right now doesn't work. and as a result of that, our companies are looking to use the temporary foreign worker program. They're looking to stream those temporary foreign workers into the provincial nominee programs using the Canadian citizenship class, etc. The federal skilled worker program is just not a current option for them.

The other point that I think is extremely important here is that, despite the fact that we are relying heavily on the temporary foreign worker program, our projected skill shortage into the future is not a temporary problem. The simple math shows that it is not a temporary problem. It will not, to any great degree, go away with the ebb and flow of the economy.

With a fertility rate in Canada of approximately 1.5 to 1.6, we're just not replacing the population that is retiring or that we're losing from the workforce. The international guideline is a fertility rate of about 2.0 or 2.1 in order to replace your population; currently, Canada is around 1.58 or 1.6. The mathematics alone suggest that we need to look abroad for our future workforce.

I have some recommendations for our current system. First, we need to ensure that the backlog under the federal skilled worker program is dealt with. If resources are needed, let's apply the necessary resources. Secondly, we need to take a hard look at the eligibility requirements under the point system to ensure we are not turning away the workers that our country needs in the future, not just in the construction industry, but in a number of other industries, particularly in the area of skilled trades.

Given the large amount of infrastructure Canada needs to build in the next five years to keep pace with the growing international demand for our commodities, for our natural resources, let alone replacing our aging public infrastructure, which is also a priority, the challenge is no longer theoretical. We must act today to secure a labour market for Canada's infrastructure to be competitive and productive in the world.

In conclusion, we encourage the government to take a hard look at expediting the backlog under the federal skilled worker program and make necessary reforms so that workers who are needed for our future labour market are not turned away, despite the backlog. There is also a need to ensure that under the provincial nominee program--and in other areas where in fact industries like ours are using these particular programs--we do not hinder their ability to bring in workers, particularly when the federal skilled worker program is not working for industries like ours.

Mr. Chair, that concludes my opening remarks. I look forward to questions. Thank you for your time.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

Thank you, Mr. Atkinson.

I know there will be some questions.

Mr. Menegakis has up to seven minutes.

[Costas Menegakis, Conservative, Richmond Hill, ON]

Thank you.

Thank you very much for being here with us today and for sharing your thoughts and your concerns with us. This is necessary and valuable information for us as a committee as we move forward with our recommendations to the minister and to the government.

Canada, as you know and as we all know, is one of the most welcoming countries in the world. Last year, we let in a record 280,000 people. Having said that, there is a backlog. We don't see that backlog getting better unless something is done.

Mr. Mokhtari, you mentioned the number of hits you get on your website. There were 43 million hits on Immigration Canada's website in the past year. That's 120,000 an hour. Of those hits, 56% are from international sources and 44% are internal, so there are an awful lot of people who are interested or are showing interest in coming to Canada, and we just don't see the demand getting any smaller.

I think we can get bogged down in talking about numbers and statistics. We can speak about and debate those issues and the processing times and so forth, but quite often we focus on the quantity, and I don't know if there's enough focus on the quality, which is a point I've made before in this committee and outside of this committee. It's not just about the sheer number of people we let in; it's about making sure that the immigrants who come here are able to integrate, join the workforce, and fully participate in the economy and the community.

I represent the riding of Richmond Hill. It's one of the most diverse ridings in the country, with, I might add, a very dynamic and progressive Iranian community. I think the government has shown that integration of new Canadians is one of our key goals. Would you agree?

Also, can you please expand, from your perspective, on what the practical limits are as to how many people Canada can welcome every year? The question is for all four of you.

[Warren Creates]

The question is how many...?

[Costas Menegakis, Conservative, Richmond Hill, ON]

No. Would you agree with that assessment that we need to focus on the quality as well, and on our ability to integrate new immigrants into our infrastructure, our health care, and so forth?

Also, can you expand on the practical limits for us here in Canada as to how many people we can welcome every year? There are practical limits as to how many people can come.

[Warren Creates]

I completely agree with you. It's not just about the number.

The debate has been about the number and about the kinds of immigration. It has always been that way. It will always be that way.

We seem to have done a pretty good job. It's experimental, right? Canada accepts more immigrants than does any other western country in the world, so the society ultimately built by doing so is a bit of an experiment. But I think we would agree that the experiment has been a great success so far. Let's hope that continues, but let's not take it for granted.

I know that the department does a statistical evaluation whereby they seek information from the Canada Customs and Revenue Agency to look at how the cohort is doing compared to how the host community is doing. I've read that the average income of the newcomers over the last eight years, let's say, is not what it used to be. It's not as good as the income of the host community. It's not as good as it used to be.

There needs to be a constant refinement of the quality of applicants we're seeking. I'm referring mostly to the economic stream, of course, not to the family reunification stream, because you really don't have any control over that stream, as there's no assessment for education, language ability, age, or any of those things.

I agree with you: there needs to be a constant focus on that. It's very hard to speculate because it takes two, three, or four years to go through the pipe to get a federal skilled worker here, and what are the economy and the needs in the labour force going to be like by the time that person is here? If they are 24 when they apply, but 28 by the time they settle.... Also, initially, they might not settle very completely. They might go back to their country.

The permanent resident card requires them to be here only 40% of the time, so there's a lot at play here to develop a mixture. I think the department should have very good demographers and economists working with them to achieve this. I'm not an expert in that field. I'm a carpenter, if you will. Give me a client and I can get them into Canada, but I don't really focus on the quality side. The department needs to have a really full gaggle of demographers and economists, I think, to study that very point.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

Thank you, sir.

Mr. Atkinson, and then Ms. Parker.

[Michael Atkinson]

Your question is a valid one. I think that one way our industry has tried to deal with this is by having good, accurate labour market information. Heretofore, we've been partnered with HRSDC and CIC in order to produce that. You need that seven-, eight-, or ten-year look forward in order to ensure that the people you are bringing in will have jobs, that they will have employment, and that they will receive the necessary training.

In our industry, at the trades level it takes four years to go through an apprenticeship, so we have to be thinking long range. Having a snapshot of what it looks like today is not going to help whatsoever. That's why this is important. Quite frankly, that's why it's so important for federal government departments to continue to be partners with industry in this area. That is key. I do know that Minister Finley has announced a new program with respect to labour market information, which tries to get at that.

The other point is implicit in your question. It intrigues me and I'd like to hear some discussion on this. It implies that it is the provincial governments, perhaps, that should have a say here. After all, if the immigrants are not employable, it will fall upon the provinces, upon their social welfare programs, upon their rolls, to take care of those new Canadians or those newly landed immigrants. That begs the question, at least in our industry: if we are pushing employers to have to use the temporary foreign worker program and then the provincial nominee program, rather than having people come through the federal skilled worker program, it is pushing it more on the provincial level.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

That issue has been raised before. I thank you.

Ms. Parker.

[Katrina Parker]

My opinion is also a lot like Mr. Atkinson's.

In order to respond to the quality, I think we need to focus maybe a bit more on the urgent labour market needs. Maybe doing that means issuing more work permits, having these people come in more quickly, and processing their permanent residency applications inside Canada in order to reduce the backlog overseas and really focus on these market needs.

I agree with what Mr. Atkinson was saying about our selection grid not permitting that. If it's urgent, you can't wait three or four years to have a doctor come in.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

Please be brief, Mr. Mokhtari.

[Ali Mokhtari]

I totally agree. As a government, you have to constantly work on this issue of who is suitable for our society, and we have to say that it is in the long term.

In some areas there is no doubt that we have needs. These needs have been announced before. Based on that, we approved some rules, and these rules have been announced to people. People put their hope in the future based on those applications. It's not fair to change the policy and keep them backlogged because we are not sure what we really need.

The backlogs were at 600,000 before Mr. Kenney came to office, and he says it is one million. So for domestics only, here's my question: what were they were doing for the last three years? Why those areas...? People with specialization in those areas, people who we need, have to wait there, and we are not sure.... Maybe we are not sure about all the areas, but there are some areas in which we know we need people.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

Thank you, sir.

Mr. Davies.

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I'd like to welcome all the witnesses to the committee--

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

Do you have a point of order, Mr. Menegakis?

[Costas Menegakis, Conservative, Richmond Hill, ON]

I have a point of information.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

I don't know what that is. We only have points of order.

[Costas Menegakis, Conservative, Richmond Hill, ON]

Then I have a point of order. I want to correct the record. When Mr. Kenney came into office—

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

No, you can't do that. We're not going to get into that.

Mr. Davies.