Citizenship and Immigration Committee on Nov. 1st, 2011

[Prof. Arthur Sweetman]

I'll go first. I don't know that we have an answer to that question. Canada right now is among the top two or three developed countries in the world in terms of the percentage of the population we allow in.

We know that in our society over the last 30 years or so there has been a very sharp and marked decline in the labour market outcomes for new immigrants who are arriving. We've seen a decline.

It's very difficult to say a number, especially given how we allocate that number across various classes. If you were talking about increasing the percentage of skilled worker principal applicants, that's a very different thing than talking about parents and grandparents. I think we want to be very cautious.

I also believe that we don't necessarily want to have an annual limit. I'm one of those people who believe that we should have a total number over the course of a business cycle and that we should adjust our limits with the business cycle to allow economic integration. We know that economic integration is more successful when people land—and that people will stay in Canada, rather than returning or going to some third country—at the peak of a cycle versus during a recession.

I don't think this is a simple question, and I don't think we know the answer with any real certainty. Thank you.

[Felix Zhang]

I don't have the numbers on how many we should admit each year. I believe that once we admit skilled workers, for example, they have their parents living in their home country.

If we don't have a locked-in ratio like 7% to 8% for the past few years, if we keep cutting that ratio, that means more and more new immigrants won't be able to reunite with their parents in Canada, and then they'll have to go back home to take care of their parents. I think the immigration policy should allow us to bring our parents here so we can stay here for a longer term. Otherwise it's going to be a short-term stay, and then we have to go. I don't think that's the right direction for this country.

Thank you.

[Costas Menegakis, Conservative, Richmond Hill, ON]

A previous witness to our committee suggested that people should provide the government with $75,000 if they want to bring parents or grandparents to Canada to cover the costs of social services over their time here. What do you think of this suggestion, and do you think that $75,000 seems like a fair amount? Why or why not?

[Felix Zhang]

Our group members are against this idea. I don't know where this $75,000 number comes from. We obviously are suggesting a non-refundable health premium. It will create a fast-track queue for rich people and it treats the others as second-class citizens. So if that idea stands, does that mean we should charge a premium for patients if they want to wait less and just let other people wait longer? This is unfair.

[Costas Menegakis, Conservative, Richmond Hill, ON]

Mr. Sweetman, do you care to comment on that?

[Prof. Arthur Sweetman]

In some sense this is in line with what Canada has done for a long time in asking families or sponsors of family class refugees to guarantee that the new immigrants won't be responsible for a social assistance burden on our society. I think we can push this too far, however, and make immigration something for the rich rather than something for the general population. This is consistent with what Canada has done in the past in some dimension, but we need to be careful about this because we can certainly push it too far.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

Thank you, Mr. Sweetman.

Ms. Sitsabaiesan.

[Rathika Sitsabaiesan, NDP, Scarborough—Rouge River, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. My first question goes to Mr. Bohbot.

In your capacity as immigration lawyer, why is there a backlog in immigration?

[Dan Bohbot]

You’re talking about the immigration backlog?

You can speak in English, if you wish. I do understand English.

[Rathika Sitsabaiesan, NDP, Scarborough—Rouge River, ON]

What would you attribute the backlog to?

[Dan Bohbot]

There has always been a backlog in immigration. This is nothing new. The difference is in the quantity, really. It's only accumulating.

So in 2002, when they implemented IRPA, there was already a backlog. The then government decided, well, they were no longer going to process the old files, they were going to just start with the new ones. That led to a class action and the government lost.

That's why I think the government has to be really careful how they try to eliminate the current backlog.

[Rathika Sitsabaiesan, NDP, Scarborough—Rouge River, ON]

Do you feel that the backlog has significantly increased because of the ministerial instructions that happened, or are you...?

[Dan Bohbot]

No, no, I'm not saying that. The backlog has always existed, and the ministerial instructions are trying to address part of that backlog--definitely, yes.

[Rathika Sitsabaiesan, NDP, Scarborough—Rouge River, ON]

My next question is for Mr. Sweetman.

It seems we've both moved on from Queen's, Mr. Sweetman.

You mentioned that the longer people wait in the backlog, it significantly decreases their ability to integrate well into Canadian society. Given the labour market needs that have been raised by Citizenship and Immigration Canada, that in about five years 100% of our labour market demands will need to be filled by immigrants, can you comment on how Canada will be able to attract the skilled workers we need if we place limitations on family reunification?

[Prof. Arthur Sweetman]

That's a multi-faceted question. Canada has never had any trouble attracting immigrants. That's why we have a backlog. So I don't think Canada will have trouble attracting immigrants in the future. I don't think that's really an issue.

The issue is in some sense dealing with the backlog and selecting immigrants who will have successful labour market outcomes. I think that's a challenge we face.

I think my second proposal, about increasing the points threshold for the skilled worker program, addresses that point to some extent. I think if we increase that threshold, we'll simultaneously decrease the size of the backlog.

So I think we can deal with that, at least for skilled workers, in a relatively straightforward way, although it will take some political courage to undertake that.

[Rathika Sitsabaiesan, NDP, Scarborough—Rouge River, ON]

But, Mr. Sweetman, if I may, most of the immigrant community that I'm well-versed with in the Scarborough community are people who enjoy and feel that extended families are of value to their individual families, as well as to the community.

If we're trying to attract skilled workers to fill our labour market needs, how is it that we're going to be able to continue to attract the good, the best and the brightest of the world, if we're telling them that they might not be able to bring their parents or family with them?

[Prof. Arthur Sweetman]

You may have noticed, since you're asking me the question again, that I never really answered that part of your question.

[Rathika Sitsabaiesan, NDP, Scarborough—Rouge River, ON]

Exactly.

[Prof. Arthur Sweetman]

It's true that one of the advantages that Canada offers to new immigrants is our family class, with the provision that parents and grandparents can immigrate. It's a matter of doing that in an appropriate way.

I personally don't have a big problem with increasing the family class size a little bit, but there are limits to what we want to do in terms of costs that our society wishes to bear.

Personally, I think the diversity that immigration brings to our society, and that parents and grandparents bring to our society, merits those costs.

[Rathika Sitsabaiesan, NDP, Scarborough—Rouge River, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Sweetman.

Mr. Zhang, you've mentioned also that we have very imbalanced processing with respect to families who are waiting from different visa offices. Last week we had a witness who also mentioned the same thing. Depending on which visa office they're applying to, they end up waiting from 14 months to 55 months for their family to be reunited or for their application to be processed.

What are your ideas about the actual imbalance with the processing time, and what are your ideas for improving the situation?

[Felix Zhang]

This issue has been there for a long time. All we're suggesting is that we manage all applications through a single queue rather than assign quotas to visa offices. If we could manage all applications as step one, and, once step one has passed, if there's no queue at each visa office, that means all processing times for all sponsors will be pretty much the same.

That's our suggestion.

[Rathika Sitsabaiesan, NDP, Scarborough—Rouge River, ON]

Thank you, Felix.

As well, because you're from a community organization that's about sponsoring our parents and grandparents, can you elaborate on the consequences that we'll be facing on capping or putting quotas on the actual immigration of parents and grandparents?

[Felix Zhang]

Currently the backlog is already huge, and it's not practical for aging parents. If we are putting caps onto new applications, or just even to further reduce the annual admission quota, that will hurt the community. The people staying here, they have a longer-term plan, but if such a thing happens, it leaves the new immigrants no choice but to leave.

Put simply, this is going to hurt Canada.

[Rathika Sitsabaiesan, NDP, Scarborough—Rouge River, ON]

Thank you.

I just want to reiterate, about the one example you used about a Brampton man who has now liquidated all of his assets in Canada and moved outside of the country because his parents weren't able to be reunited, that I think that type of example is happening all across the country. By not allowing our parents and grandparents into this country, your example and many of the other examples show that we're actually seeing an economic net loss, rather than a net profit, by not allowing more immigrants' families to come into this country.

[Felix Zhang]

Exactly.