Citizenship and Immigration Committee on March 21st, 2013

[C/Supt Joe Oliver]

The RCMP has approximately 35 liaison officers strategically located globally.

The RCMP in foreign jurisdictions, as my colleague mentioned, must rely on the goodwill and support of the foreign authorities who actually have the law enforcement authority. So when we are operating abroad, it is in the capacity of sharing investigative information. In some cases, it may be through capacity building, where there may be a lack of skills and—

[Olivia Chow, NDP, Trinity—Spadina, ON]

I understand that, but that wasn't my question. It was how many people.

You have 35 officers who are boots on the ground, so to speak, so that you can investigate and say that person is a criminal, a proven sex offender, or a proven suspect of terrorism, and then you can track them down.

[C/Supt Joe Oliver]

I would clarify that our liaison officers are in post. We also supplement those on a case-by-case basis where there may be an incident that requires additional capacity or specialized investigative capacity. These are cases, for instance, like the Algerian situation that was referenced earlier, where the RCMP deployed specialists to help with identification.

[Olivia Chow, NDP, Trinity—Spadina, ON]

Thank you.

Do you share lists with the CBSA? I know you do in some cases share the suspect lists of terrorists. That's how Maher Arar got sent to Syria for torture. Do you share the children's sex offender registry list, for example, or for people who are suspected of terrorism? Do you not share lists with the CBSA so that people will be warned if they're travelling abroad, or so that CBSA may even be able to stop them from travelling abroad?

[C/Supt Joe Oliver]

We would share information with the CBSA on a case-by-case basis, with a purpose, an intent, in mind. If we were aware that someone who is wanted may be returning from a foreign jurisdiction, we may inform CBSA. There may be instances where we are concerned about someone leaving Canada, but the CBSA has limited capacity to monitor exits from Canada. In fact, most often we would try to work with our international partners to identify the arrival in a foreign jurisdiction when somebody has departed Canada. There are no exit controls in Canada today, as we speak.

[Olivia Chow, NDP, Trinity—Spadina, ON]

If you have a suspect who has a criminal record and you have that person on a list, do you tell the CBSA that the person is coming back, or do you tell the foreign country, whether that be Pakistan, Cuba or Thailand, that you have a list of criminals who are about to enter their countries and to be aware?

[C/Supt Joe Oliver]

No, the RCMP does not have a list that we share with countries. The RCMP maintains the criminal record repository for Canada on behalf of the Canadian law enforcement community. There are agreements and arrangements, either through Interpol or with the United States, for instance, and with other domestic federal or municipal law enforcement agencies where they can access this repository to check to see if people have criminal records.

[Olivia Chow, NDP, Trinity—Spadina, ON]

Whether the person has a passport or not, if that person has been convicted as a criminal in the past, or you suspect that person has committed serious crimes and would offend, whether that be children or a country or what have you, would you not then feel it is your responsibility...? What criteria would you use to actually notify that country? Is it what kind of offence it is? And would the passport make any difference, whether the person has citizenship or not? It could be a landed immigrant or citizens or dual citizens. Does that matter? You know that person has been a criminal and may reoffend. Would you not feel it's your responsibility to either tell CBSA or the foreign countries?

[C/Supt Joe Oliver]

Canadian citizens who have a passport to travel have the right to travel. It is not for the RCMP to monitor and inform others that individuals who may have been convicted and have done their sentence in Canada are now travelling.

There are arrangements that are put in place where if someone is travelling and the foreign country wants to screen against Canada's databases, there is a possibility for that to happen. Canada and the United States, through CPIC and NCIC, have an arrangement that if someone enters the U.S., the U.S. can take the passport information and query against Canada's database to see if the person has a criminal record in Canada. We have a reciprocal agreement with the U.S. that if the RCMP—

[Olivia Chow, NDP, Trinity—Spadina, ON]

Okay, that's with the U.S., but what about other countries? I talked about Cuba, Thailand—

[C/Supt Joe Oliver]

It's not systematic with other countries. It would normally be done through Interpol, and in those cases it would often involve their notice system if someone is wanted for travelling or they're under surveillance or they are wanted for an offence.

[Olivia Chow, NDP, Trinity—Spadina, ON]

Okay, but would it be useful to have that kind of agreement? The U.S. has 75 boots on the ground in Homeland Security to track down people overseas. Would it not be useful for us to have that kind of agreement with other countries?

[C/Supt Joe Oliver]

I think it would be useful, if the RCMP is interested in an individual who may not be under surveillance or who we want, to know if they are trying to leave the country or trying to get back into the country, because that would give us the opportunity to take some sort of enforcement action, but unfortunately those systems and authorities don't exist today.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

I think that concludes your time, Ms. Chow.

You know, Mr. Leung opened all this, and we're really getting off topic with both Mr. Leung and Ms. Chow. I understand there have been hints that we're going to broaden this definition of “act of war” into other things. It's all very interesting, but I just question whether what Mr. Leung and Ms. Chow have been raising is relevant to the bill.

However, we'll see how things go.

Mr. Lamoureux.

[Kevin Lamoureux, Liberal, Winnipeg North, MB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Canada today has 14 convicted terrorists. I assume that all 14 are in jail right now?

[C/Supt Joe Oliver]

We have 15 convicted terrorists.

[Kevin Lamoureux, Liberal, Winnipeg North, MB]

We have 15, and they're all in jail?

[C/Supt Joe Oliver]

That I don't know. I don't look after the disposition. They may be in jail or they may have been released if they've served their sentences.

[Kevin Lamoureux, Liberal, Winnipeg North, MB]

I think it would be interesting if we as a committee could actually find out where those 15 convicted terrorists are.

Mr. Peirce, you don't know, do you?

[Michael Peirce]

No, I don't know the answer to that.

[C/Supt Joe Oliver]

Correctional Service of Canada would probably be the best authority to secure that information from.

[Kevin Lamoureux, Liberal, Winnipeg North, MB]

Sure.

I'm wondering if we would have a better world if in fact those individuals were just deported out of Canada, if their citizenship was taken away from them and they were put in some other foreign country. Would we be in a better world if that were the case, do you think?

[C/Supt Joe Oliver]

That would be very much a question of speculation on my part.

[Kevin Lamoureux, Liberal, Winnipeg North, MB]

Absolutely. We'd have 15 Canadian terrorists around the world. Hopefully they wouldn't bomb any Canadian embassies or anything of that nature. But the point is, at the end of the day we have 15 convicted terrorists in Canada. We also have dozens of Canadians travelling the world, participating in potential terrorist activities.

Is that correct, Mr. Peirce?

[Michael Peirce]

That's correct.