Citizenship and Immigration Committee on March 21st, 2013

[Michael Peirce]

They travel to conflict zones, the Afghanistan-Pakistan border region, Syria, Yemen. Certainly we see Somalia as well. In those circumstances, they have the opportunity then to engage in terrorist activity. We know a number of them have been killed.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

Thank you.

Go ahead, Ms. Freeman.

[Mylène Freeman, NDP, Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel, QC]

Thank you, Chair.

And thank you to our witnesses for being here today.

To both of you, I'd like to start off by asking what role each of your organizations would play in the investigation of an act of war and whether your organizations' respective roles in executing this bill's intended outcome are obvious in the legislation as it is today.

[Michael Peirce]

In terms of investigating an act of war, we would not have a role per se; we investigate threats to national security. In terms of activities in support of the bill, I'm not sure whether we're talking about the bill as is. As is, we would have very little role.

[C/Supt Joe Oliver]

The RCMP would have virtually no role.

[Mylène Freeman, NDP, Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel, QC]

All right.

So how would this legislation, then, ensure due process under the law? That is to say, which courts would hear the case? Does the legislation make clear the evidentiary burden to establish that a person has engaged in an act of war against the Canadian armed forces?

[C/Supt Joe Oliver]

That's perhaps a question best addressed to CIC on its process.

[Mylène Freeman, NDP, Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel, QC]

Okay, thank you.

To Mr. Peirce, could you define for us what your organization classifies as a terrorist threat? I ask this because it has been suggested that we might include that, as well as an act of war. Approximately how many terrorist threats does CSIS investigate annually, and of those, how many are deemed true threats to Canada?

[Michael Peirce]

It's a many-layered question. We investigate threats to the national security of Canada, so a terrorist threat isn't part of the definition per se. A threat to the national security of Canada is defined in section 2 of the CSIS Act.

In respect of investigations, I'm not sure that we disclose the number of investigations we're undertaking.

[Mylène Freeman, NDP, Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel, QC]

I understand.

Superintendent Oliver, could you give us the description of terrorism as defined under the Criminal Code? Could you estimate the number of terrorism investigations in which the RCMP is involved each year and how many are convicted, things like that?

[C/Supt Joe Oliver]

The definition of terrorism is quite extensive. It would probably consume all of your time reading through section 2 of the Criminal Code of Canada.

[Mylène Freeman, NDP, Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel, QC]

Okay. The committee will just consider section 2 as within our evidence. I'll let you answer the rest of the question.

[C/Supt Joe Oliver]

As to the number of investigations, I do not have those statistics. But since the Anti-terrorism Act has come into force, there have been 15 terrorist-related convictions.

[Mylène Freeman, NDP, Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel, QC]

Okay.

When investigating potential terrorism links, cases, or other threats to national security, are there different safety monitoring provisions in place for people who are Canadians or non-Canadians, or do we treat them in the same way?

[C/Supt Joe Oliver]

Within Canada, certainly someone's citizenship or their origin...if they're a threat to Canada, they're a threat to Canada. We would investigate it with the same vigour as we would any other offence.

[Mylène Freeman, NDP, Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel, QC]

Superintendent Oliver, what are the current charges possible for acts of terrorism or involvement in a terrorist organization? If convicted, what are the legal repercussions associated with these charges?

[C/Supt Joe Oliver]

I would refer the committee to section 2 of the Criminal Code, which makes reference to international agreements. It also makes reference to terrorist activity under section 83 of the Criminal Code. Again, it's quite extensive.

Depending on the type of offence, the specific offence, each possible sentence varies. It could vary from life imprisonment to 10 years in prison, 14 years in prison. If it's an attempt, it could be half that. It would vary depending on the circumstances and the judge's discretion in sentencing.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

Thank you, Ms. Freeman.

Ms. James.

[Roxanne James, Conservative, Scarborough Centre, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and my thanks to both of our guests for being here.

Being from Toronto and having the Toronto 18 group basically on my doorstep, I'm very concerned about these types of individuals here in Canada. In your opening remarks, you talked about a number of individuals you might be investigating. I'm wondering if you can speak more to the specifics of those individual cases. I know you're not able to provide names, but I would like to know far more details than you broadly outlined in your opening remarks. Is that possible?

[C/Supt Joe Oliver]

I can only speak about convictions and publicly announced charges. I'm not in a position to give any details about ongoing investigations.

[Roxanne James, Conservative, Scarborough Centre, ON]

Do you have any details on ongoing investigations, or would that be more in your realm, Mr. Peirce?

[Michael Peirce]

I'm in a similar circumstance in trying to speak to ongoing investigations. We obviously hold that information very closely. The level of description that I've offered is about the level of description that we feel comfortable with.

[Roxanne James, Conservative, Scarborough Centre, ON]

I understand this is a public forum; it's either televised or it's audio or whatever else. But I'm wondering, Mr. Chair, whether we could go in camera to get these types of answers. I think it's important for this committee to understand the scope of the problem that we have here in Canada. It's not simply the Toronto 18 group. If there are ongoing investigations, I for one am very concerned as a member of Parliament for the Toronto area. So I'm wondering, Mr. Chair, whether it's possible to go in camera to get more answers.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

Ms. James, and I'll ask for your assistance, what I don't know—this was referred to by the minister—is the status of these matters, whether they're concluded, whether there's still time for appeal, or whether it's all finished.

Can anyone tell me that? Because if there's still time to appeal these matters, then I don't think we have the right to get into it.

[Roxanne James, Conservative, Scarborough Centre, ON]

Sorry, there was no sense of appeal; it's ongoing investigations.