Citizenship and Immigration Committee on May 23rd, 2013

[Caroline Melis]

The refugee appeal division, and the citizenship issues related to the User Fees Act.

[John Weston, Conservative, West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast—Sea to Sky Country, BC]

Okay, then maybe you could give me a bit of clarification. Could you elaborate on what you've come to discuss and how that relates to our committee's work?

[Caroline Melis]

We understood we would be coming to discuss the issues related to the changes in the User Fees Act as they relate to the citizenship program, and also the issues in the bill related to the refugee appeal division.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

I guess our witnesses are here to answer questions on the clauses that were referred to this committee. Some of those other questions perhaps apply to another committee; that's our problem.

[John Weston, Conservative, West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast—Sea to Sky Country, BC]

Okay, well—

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

But I guess they'll tell you. They're doing a good job at telling you.

[John Weston, Conservative, West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast—Sea to Sky Country, BC]

That's the best thing in life: to know what you know, to know what you don't know, and to know what you're not supposed to know. Right?

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

Your time has expired.

I took some of your time, so I'll give you another few seconds.

[John Weston, Conservative, West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast—Sea to Sky Country, BC]

Could you elaborate on how taxpayers are subsidizing citizenship fees?

I think that falls into what you're talking about today. Right?

[Karine Paré]

As I mentioned earlier, right now the fee for an adult is $200. The fee is composed of two elements: $100 for the processing of the application and $100 for the right of citizenship. The actual cost of processing an application based on our 2010-11 costing model, where we captured all the costs of processing an application for a child or an adult, was around $555.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

Thank you, Ms. Paré.

Ms. Sims.

[Jinny Sims, NDP, Newton—North Delta, BC]

Thank you very much.

I want to thank our witnesses for coming before this committee at such short notice. We really appreciate it.

I also want to express my disappointment that we are facing yet another massive piece of legislation from this government. The bill in its entirety includes a wide variety of complex measures, few relating to each other. The objective, it seems, is to ram all of these changes through Parliament as quickly as possible without the opportunity to scrutinize them.

Just to put it on the record, the official opposition did make a concerted effort to have this legislation separated so that the citizenship and immigration committee could study those parts that related to our area in great depth. For instance, the changes to the temporary foreign worker program—and I know that my colleague tried to ask a question about this—did not even make it before this committee, which I find particularly disturbing, since it is the Minister of Citizenship and Immigration who ultimately issues those work permits.

Nonetheless, I don't want to waste any more time, because we have a very short amount of time. I have a number of questions.

Under the clauses we're examining today, two tiers of refugee claimants are created in Canada. Is that correct?

[André Baril]

I wouldn't call it two tiers, but there are—

[Jinny Sims, NDP, Newton—North Delta, BC]

Two groupings.

[André Baril]

There are different groups, yes.

[Jinny Sims, NDP, Newton—North Delta, BC]

Okay. That's—

[André Baril]

There are those that come from a designated country of origin, those countries that don't normally produce refugees, and those that come from other countries.

[Jinny Sims, NDP, Newton—North Delta, BC]

Yes, so basically it's those who have access to appeal under the new system and those who don't. To clarify, it was the Minister of Citizenship and Immigration alone who decided which countries would make that list; in other words, which refugee claimants deserved a second look at their cases, which ones deserved individual attention, versus which ones could be assumed to be, to quote an adjective he uses often, “bogus”.

In your experience with this department, you must see.... Maybe you don't want to go that far. You must have had some of the same concerns we've had, one of which is the concern around denying individuals from designated countries any right to an appeal. We feel that this is a denial of due process and a denial of justice to people who are potentially very vulnerable, and this government wants that cemented in legislation.

This could very conceivably, and I have little doubt will, result in sending someone back into a situation where they are being persecuted or worse. How can we afford this option to some and not to others?

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

Off the record.... Stop the clock.

It's partially a political question—

[Jinny Sims, NDP, Newton—North Delta, BC]

Oh, I—

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

I'm sure the witnesses are capable of doing their best to answer the question, but there's no question that some of that question is political.

Go ahead.

Start the clock.

[André Baril]

Thank you.

In terms of the provisions that are in this bill, it was never the government's intent to provide the refugee appeal division right to claimants who are in the previous system. This was due to a drafting error in which a subsection that was brought into force on August 15 brought the whole section into force. That created a four-month period where claimants in the old system would have access to the refugee appeal division. That's what we are aiming to correct in this particular bill.

In terms of the claimants in the old system and the ones who are coming from a designated country of origin, the one principle that hasn't changed in Canada is that every claimant, irrespective of the country they come from, will have access to an independent hearing at the IRB and will continue to have access to judicial review by the Federal Court. That is not changing.

In terms of designating country of origin, you're quite right. It's the Minister of Citizenship and Immigration who designates, but the legislation that was approved by Parliament indicates that there are some boundaries in terms of how this should be done. In terms of looking at a country that does not generally produce refugees, what we look at are the data of the acceptance rates and refusal rates of the IRB over the last three years, and so—

[Jinny Sims, NDP, Newton—North Delta, BC]

Thank you very much.

Basically, under the new system now, those from designated countries will not have access to appeal.

[André Baril]

They will not have access to the newly created refugee appeal division—

[Jinny Sims, NDP, Newton—North Delta, BC]

That's all I needed to know.