Citizenship and Immigration Committee on March 26th, 2015

[Prof. John Shields]

I think the evidence suggests that there are some gaps in that regard. Having greater information available that is easier to access from overseas would help with that.

To some degree there is a large amount of information on the Internet, but sometimes it's a bit overwhelming. We need a central way in which that information is distributed and where potential newcomers can go very easily to access that type of information.

[John McCallum, Liberal, Markham—Unionville, ON]

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

Thank you, sir.

Mr. Leung.

[Chungsen Leung, Conservative, Willowdale, ON]

Thank you, Chair, and witnesses.

I wish to comment that our government is extremely concerned about family reunification, and because of that, we have implemented a program whereby parents and grandparents can actually come in on a 10-year super visa. The approval rate has been over 80% among those who have applied.

Let me also move on to say that our government invests $600 million in settlement services. That is a significant kind of investment.

I'd like to hear from Mr. Shields first.

How do you see that we should measure that? What is a good measuring stick to determine whether we are getting the best return for this investment? How do we track the longer term integration of immigrants, rather than processing them through and then sending them out into the community?

I'll hear from you first, please.

[Prof. John Shields]

Of course, measurement is always a little tricky because of variables that come in to determine success. If you have a recession, obviously the outcomes are going to be very different from during a period where there's job expansion and so forth. I guess I would start by saying that measuring things directly is not an easy task. However, I think if we actually look at integration in Canada, even with greater difficulties of immigrants in terms of matching their skills to jobs and so forth, I think we still see a lot of achievement that has been happening.

I mentioned the notion of the second generation, which also means that we need to take more long-term views. The children of immigrants, in almost all cases, are doing exceptionally well.

Also, in terms of settlement programs, I think government has to provide some funds to collect the kinds of data that are necessary to do these sorts of measurements, and also to fund studies that are done at a more macro level as well as at the local level. This would involve both quantitative and qualitative types of indicators. Right now we tend to do a lot of counting of things like bums in seats, but we don't look so much at the quality of outcomes. That's a much more difficult type of task.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

Excuse me, sir. We'll stop the clock.

There is a bell ringing, but I think that's to see if there's a quorum. If it rings again, we will have to leave.

[Costas Menegakis, Conservative, Richmond Hill, ON]

That may just be the opening of the House.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

That's what I meant, sir. It's to see if there's a quorum.

If there are no more bells, we'll stay, and if there is a bell, we will have to leave.

Mr. Leung, sorry to interrupt you.

[Chungsen Leung, Conservative, Willowdale, ON]

Ms. Andrews or Ms. Vaughan-Barrett, would you like to answer the question about how we measure and how we determine whether we are getting the best bang for the buck?

[Audrey Andrews]

I'd like an opportunity, through the chair, to reply to that.

In Durham region, we adopted what's called a results-based accountability methodology. With this framework we're trying to measure change at a community level.

We ask three questions of everything: What did we do? How much did we do? Is anybody better off? The third question is the most important for the purpose—or at all, in my opinion. It creates an opportunity to tell the story behind the curve, and these are the most valuable pieces of information we can get to tell our story of whether we are doing what we said we were going to do.

I would really underscore the importance of a framework, but underscore the importance of understanding that it's an investment in this framework and that communities need to be resourced to do this in particular. Beyond counting bums in seats, it's an endeavour, and it requires resources and professional staff. It can't be done off the corner of a desk.

[Tracey Vaughan-Barrett]

Through the chair to the member, just to pick up on that point, we recognize the positive moves CIC has made in terms of the changes to the annualized report and some broadening of the collection of data. I think it's a great move. The unfortunate piece is that we haven't been able to collectively put the data together to really speak to the return on investment, and that's really where we collectively need to do a better job. How do we give you the tools, the information, the resources to be able to speak to the change and the story behind the change? I think further improvements to that annualized report and to iCARE systems are certainly part of that answer. It's not just what CIC funds that tells the entire story. What is the process, the collection mechanism, like a results-based accountability framework, that can collect that and can inform the process? When we talk about sustainable community-level change, it means leadership of organizations in terms of board representation and senior management. Those are the things you're not going to get through a CIC year-end report, nor could you. However, how do we create these pools of intelligence that can help speak to the real meaningful change that's happening at the community level? I think that's really a critical question for all of us to talk about how we do a better job.

[Chungsen Leung, Conservative, Willowdale, ON]

Mr. Chan, I'd like to hear from you about how we track refugee resettlement and how successful we are in terms of the longer term, as compared to the other immigrants who we bring in.

[Sherman Chan]

For me, I like the notion of telling stories. When we look at success, we're really looking at how individuals integrate and become part of Canada. We talked about the Vietnamese boat people many years ago, and nobody's talking about them now, because they are already in the community. They are part of the community. They are part of Canadian life. I think what we want to measure is the stories. We want to measure how they will be seen by others, how Canadian immigrants and refugees are functioning, how they participate in society: voting, going to the library, having gainful employment, having their children brought up nicely. I think those are the quality indicators of success.

[Chungsen Leung, Conservative, Willowdale, ON]

Go ahead, Ms. Douglas.

[Debbie Douglas]

I also think the other end of the equation is important, so that we are looking at how communities themselves have become more open and welcoming to immigrants and refugees; how public institutions have made changes to ensure that there is representation within their leadership structure; how employers are recruiting and hiring and retaining and promoting immigrants regardless of gender, race, sexual orientation, or issues of disability, which is continuing to be a real challenge for us; how employers are engaging with new immigrants. The investment we make as a country in terms of ensuring immigrant and refugee settlement has to tell the stories both of the individuals and the communities of immigrants, but also the story of Canada—

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

Thank you.

[Debbie Douglas]

—and of employers and public institutions.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

Go ahead, Ms. Blanchette-Lamothe.

[Lysane Blanchette-Lamothe, NDP, Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I would like to go back to a reply Mr. Chan gave earlier in reply to a question put by my colleague Ms. Mathyssen. q. The question was about the special needs of women regarding access to settlement services. Mr. Chan specified that these women needed to have access to those services for a longer period of time.

What did you mean, Mr. Chan? What could we do to ensure that women will have access to the services when they are ready for them?

[Sherman Chan]

For immigrant women, we see that many of them may not access services in the beginning because they have many family responsibilities which they think are important for them to look after first. By the time they feel it's time to integrate, to become economically engaged in a job or language improvement, for example, they may be already at the end of their permanent resident status and they may become Canadian citizens. That means they are not eligible for many of the services that are provided by CIC.

[Debbie Douglas]

I think the response is for us to take a look at CIC's eligibility criteria, and that services should be based on needs and not on status. For example, from what Sherman is saying, even when one becomes a citizen, those service needs don't go away, and folks should be able to access those services regardless of the fact that they've now become Canadians.

In many of the provinces, for example in Ontario, services are based on need, not immigration status. Whether or not you're a citizen, or you're a refugee claimant, or you're a refugee, or you're a permanent resident, you're able to access the kinds of settlement and integration supports that you need. It's something that over the last 20 years from time to time we have raised with Citizenship and Immigration Canada in terms of broadening who has access to services, but particularly around the citizenship piece.

[Lysane Blanchette-Lamothe, NDP, Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC]

Thank you.

Mr. Chan, earlier Ms. Douglas answered a question put by my colleague Ms. Mathyssen about the importance of family reunification. Would you agree to say that in Canada family reunification is an important element for the economic integration of newcomers? In your opinion, are there obstacles to family reunification? Are there things the government could improve to facilitate family reunification and economic integration?

[Sherman Chan]

I would definitely say that there is always improvement, particularly for immigrant women, in terms of family reunification. We talked briefly about the child care provision for many government-assisted refugees. When they come here, they are attending the RAP, the resettlement assistance program. At this point, there is still no child care provision for them. Recently, CIC introduced some funding support for child care if someone has to access settlement services. In fact, there is not much funding for it, so it's not an easy access for many immigrant women who have children. As Debbie Douglas mentioned, we see that understanding about the family dynamics, understanding the role that women will play in Canada, and also understanding the way of parenting, the school system, and domestic violence are issues that immigrant women need to learn about.

In terms of obstacles, I would say that the introduction of conditional residence may put many immigrant women at risk, because their citizenship or their permanent residence may be taken away, or their partners may use it as a control method of retaining.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

Thank you.

To our guests, you'll be pleased to know there is no vote this morning, so we can spend lots of time with each other.

Mr. Shory.

[Devinder Shory, Conservative, Calgary Northeast, AB]

Thank you to the witnesses. It's a very good morning, because virtually every witness is on the same page when we talk about economic success and social integration, which go hand in hand.

Before I go to you, Ms. Douglas, I want to make a quick comment on family reunification. As an immigrant myself, I understand how important it is. I also understand how frustrating it is when it takes five, seven, nine, or ten years. If I am in this position today, I believe my parents had a big role in it. When they came they took care of our children, and my wife and I could go back to our professions, and here I am, after upgrading my law degree here in Canada. I can talk a lot about foreign credential recognition also, and how important it is, because I lived through it for seven years. It took me seven years.

I agree with what you said, Ms. Douglas, on foreign credential recognition, that there must be a clear pathway. I'm very happy to share also that it was under the leadership of our government in 2008 which took the initiative to set aside $50 million for a pan-Canadian framework. Of course, we all know that education is a provincial jurisdiction, and there are all these regulatory bodies, specifically in the medical profession, as you mentioned. You're right: people pass the exam and they go through the channels, but there are no residencies. I agree with you 100%. I agree that is a major issue, even though there is a lot of improvement in other professions.

I also want to make a quick comment on that 5,000 cap you mentioned. As I've mentioned about the backlog, I can only compare this government with the previous government. I don't want to make it a political issue, but this is my understanding. In Canadian history, for the parents and grandparents category, in no year did more than 17,000 immigrants come—in that category, normally it was between 8,000, 12,000, 13,000, 17,000—except for these last couple of years. I believe our government, to change this policy, to deal with the backlog.... Like every department, CIC has limited funds. What they are doing is taking the number of applications they can process in a timely manner and saying that they have a target to process these applications within a couple of years after 2016-17, once they deal with the backlog.

Coming back economic and social integration, as you said, it is interconnected. They go hand by hand. In your role as executive director of the Ontario Council of Agencies Serving Immigrants, I'd like you to comment on the policy you have in place with the council to direct the agencies to address this need. How much emphasis does the council put on socio-cultural integration?