Citizenship and Immigration Committee on May 5th, 2015

[Chungsen Leung, Conservative, Willowdale, ON]

Do you have any experience of victims coming from a European culture, say, or a traditional Judeo-Christian one?

[Raheel Raza]

Yes, there have been cases, but very few. It's not to say that this does not exist in, let's say, western societies or in the Judeo-Christian culture. If you look back at the history of the western world, 150 years ago honour culture very much permeated western society as well. Young girls in the Catholic communities who had children out of wedlock were taken into nunneries. This idea of honour definitely did exist. There were witch hunts. There was abuse against women. But we are talking about the enlightenment, the awareness, and being able to get over it where you have freedom to talk about these issues.

Let's not forget that many of the victims we are dealing with in South Asian communities don't have the freedom to express their issues. They don't have the freedom to talk about it. They need to be empowered to know that the legal system is protecting them, that if there are public service announcements and a distress line, they will be able to express themselves. The distress line in England that deals specifically with honour-based violence gets 600 calls a month, primarily from the South Asian community.

[Chungsen Leung, Conservative, Willowdale, ON]

What about the East Asian culture, let's say from Japan across to Southeast Asia? Have you heard from any victims from that area?

[Raheel Raza]

I have not been approached by the East Asian community, or I haven't had much interaction in terms of knowing where that stands. A few girls from China have come and said that they have also experienced a kind of oppression of women's rights going back some time, but nothing directly regarding honour-based violence.

[Chungsen Leung, Conservative, Willowdale, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

Ms. Mathyssen.

[Irene Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you very much to our three witnesses for coming here and providing your expertise. It will be an important part of what finally comes out of this committee in regard to this bill, because obviously we want it to do what is intended.

One thing I keep hearing over and over again is the need for awareness, and I quite agree.

Ms. Raza, you talked about the Civitas conference. I was surprised to hear that the medical community didn't seem to be aware of female genital mutilation. It comes back to awareness. How can it be that a medical practitioner wouldn't know or understand that kind of violence?

[Raheel Raza]

Female genital mutilation is a practice that has taken place very much behind closed doors. When you read the statistics, it's horrifying to know that grandmothers, mothers, and midwives have been performing female genital mutilation. The doctors who have been involved have not been forthcoming about what they have seen or what they have experienced with their patients. The first doctor to be prosecuted for performing female genital mutilation in the United Kingdom was last year, although it's been going on now for almost over a decade. There is a lack of awareness.

To be very honest with you, I grew up in Pakistan, and when I came to Canada I first heard the term “FGM”. It's primarily an African tribal cultural practice that has been imported into western society with immigrants coming to these countries. When I educated myself and started learning about it, I realized that there was an appalling lack of awareness. Teachers, people who are in the education field, and people in the medical field are the ones who have first-hand contact with these young women. They need to be aware.

[Irene Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Thank you.

Ms. Go, you mentioned the need for awareness as well. We've just had a budget in this country. Was there enough in this budget for promoting awareness and understanding of the violence that permeates society?

[Avvy Go]

I don't recall seeing anything in the budget, but I could be wrong. I think this is where if we're sending a signal, if this bill's main purpose is to send a signal, then I think a better signal would be sent if the government spent money on combatting violence against women. I think sometimes we're perhaps applying a double standard. I'm seeing cases of violence in my community. People come to me, not necessarily about honour-based violence, but violence nonetheless. However, because it's not honour-based, it doesn't get the headlines in the media and the attention of this committee.

If we are concerned about violence, we should be concerned about violence anywhere.

We're concerned about polygamous relationships. We should be concerned about all polygamous relationships. Again, I see women coming in who are the mistresses of the rich Chinese and Hong Kong business people who are allowed here, to come to Canada, because they have the money to do so. These women are left behind here, abandoned by their husband, and they have no way of supporting themselves. But if we expose these relationships as polygamous, they'll be gone the next day.

I think we really have to think about how we address these issues in a more coherent way.

[Irene Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

One of the concerns is the criminalization of people and how that drives practices underground. I think that's one of the fears about this particular piece of legislation, criminalizing people and making them frightened. Would you agree with that?

[Avvy Go]

Yes, and I think that's the biggest fear. It's an ongoing debate among women who are concerned about violence as to whether criminalization is the best way to go. The debate has been going on for many decades. The fact that we're still having the debate speaks to the lack of effectiveness of this kind of measure.

[Irene Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Certainly, there are ironies. The bill says that it has the best interests of women and children at heart, yet it still permits deportation. The question is, how is sending the family back to the country of origin in the best interests of women and children?

[Avvy Go]

I think they don't. In fact, we are doing that even now. We are sending women and children who are victims of violence back to their country of origin when the sponsorship is withdrawn by the sponsor. That's happening even now.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

Thank you, Ms. Go.

Mr. Aspin.

[Jay Aspin, Conservative, Nipissing—Timiskaming, ON]

Thank you, Chair, and welcome witnesses, and thank you for your contribution to this bill, a very important bill.

Obviously, polygamy is an affront to Canadian values. Personally, I was glad to hear that it's been illegal since 1890, but we all know that this is a shameful reality in our country, so I'm going to focus on you, Ms. Raza. Can you tell me in your own words how this bill will protect Canadian values and convey to these communities that such practices are not welcome here in Canada.

[Raheel Raza]

I think, first of all, Canadians have to sit down and work out the whole idea of what are our values. When I throw that out to audiences, they say, hmm, so?

In my perspective, Canadian values and the values that I have come to this country to embrace are the values of gender equality, the values that men and women are equal, the values of individual thought and freedom, freedom of press, freedom of choice, freedom of voice. When we talk about these values, it does not have to be a negative message to the effect that this is not what we do, but rather a very positive message to that we are Canadians and this is what we uphold. Then people need to understand this.

We do not cut off the genitals of our young girls. I say this, and it's a very crass statement, because I want you to understand how barbaric that is. Unless we actually present this as being a really gross practice, which is happening to thousands of girls as we speak, we are not going to be able to change the mindset of people.

So it is based on different ideologies, some of the practices that take place, on cultures and traditions, but these are flexible and they need to evolve and change with time. Definitely we need a strong message to say that these are Canadian values and we do not support practices that are abusive to men and women, but definitely to women.

[Jay Aspin, Conservative, Nipissing—Timiskaming, ON]

Thank you.

A forced marriage, especially of young girls, is incredibly barbaric as well. How could you not call it that? Do we know if forced marriage is happening on Canadian soil, or do families typically take the girls out of the country?

[Raheel Raza]

It happens both ways. Typically they will take them out of the country, but it is also happening right here. As I said in my opening remarks, these have not been tracked. So some work needs to be done on getting statistics, and that once the awareness is there, that these girls are able to speak out, or the support systems, the social workers or educational systems that know about this to speak out. I'll give you a very quick example. When girls are taken out of the school system for prolonged periods of time no questions are raised when that is done by those from a particular culture. It's understood that in this culture a girl may be taken out of school and then taken out of education. I had a young Canadian girl email me who said that she and her three sisters were forced to stay home and told that everything outside was evil and that they would not be not allowed to go to school. But nobody questioned why they were not in school, why they were not being educated.

This is the awareness that needs to be created among social workers, teachers, and medical professionals, those who have first contact with young people. So in answer to your question, it's happening in both places.

[Jay Aspin, Conservative, Nipissing—Timiskaming, ON]

Could you tell me how the proposed amendments would prevent young girls from being taken off Canadian soil?

[Raheel Raza]

A law that would prosecute parents or anybody involved in forcing a young girl into marriage would be a definite deterrent. Just knowing that they can be criminalized for doing this, which is the law in England now.... It was brought into place about a year after Honor Diaries came out. It is now a law and parents have been prosecuted for forcing their girls to marry. That again is as a result of awareness. It says that it's a criminal offence to be in any way a part of a situation where a young girl may be forced into a marriage, including parents, relatives, extended family, anyone who plays a role in this.

[Jay Aspin, Conservative, Nipissing—Timiskaming, ON]

Thank you.

Front-line workers stress the importance of training police officers. I believe it is important that officers of the law have the tools they need to deal with honour-based violence. First of all, do you believe that this bill will give front-line workers better tools to criminalize and even prevent honour-based violence?

[Raheel Raza]

Once they are aware of the triggers of honour-based violence, which means workshops, training, and education, I believe that yes, they will be better equipped to deal with it.

They will be even better equipped to deal with issues of forced marriage. A quick example is that if a young girl calls a police officer or calls 911 and says that she's afraid her parents are going to force her into a marriage, they can't do anything because a crime has not been committed. We have seen this time and again in situations of honour killings where a girl may call and say she's afraid for her life, that she thinks her parents may hurt her, but a crime has not been committed. So that awareness and that education, I believe, is extremely important along with the bill.

[Jay Aspin, Conservative, Nipissing—Timiskaming, ON]

You believe that's a fundamental part of the package, the training of officers.

[Raheel Raza]

Absolutely, I do.