Citizenship and Immigration Committee on May 7th, 2015

[Jasbir Sandhu, NDP, Surrey North, BC]

And METRAC, what about you? What do you see out in the community? Do you think we need more resources rather than, as Ms. Aiken has pointed out, this sort of hollow bill?

[Tamar Witelson]

We absolutely need more resources. We see the extent of the problem. We see many barriers to accessing help. Let me refer to another respected community group, which I know you've heard from—the South Asian Legal Clinic of Ontario, which has done a very specific survey of women affected by forced and under-age marriage. Their conclusion is exactly opposite to what this bill proposes.

They say that these women do not want to be criminalized. What they need is resources to help them escape these unsafe situations. They need to understand how they can leave, how they can be safe; they need financial support; they need housing to actually be able to leave their families.

As we have heard from Ms. Papp, what I hear that distinguishes honour-based violence is that it's hard to understand how women who are subjected to abuse feel at the same time guilt and shame and a loyalty to their family members. In fact, the criminalization of their very abusers is going to play into this kind of abuse and create a barrier to safety.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

Thank you, Ms. Witelson.

[Tamar Witelson]

What we need is an opportunity for these women to find a way to safety without putting their family members at risk.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

Thank you. We have to move on. I'm sorry.

Mr. McCallum.

[John McCallum, Liberal, Markham—Unionville, ON]

Thank you, and thank you to all the witnesses.

In particular, congratulations, Professor Aiken, on what I thought was a masterful summary of the modus operandi of this government on these issues. I might have added an indifference to whether their laws are consistent with the charter, as another attribute.

I also agree with you totally on the title. I think I'd rather have no such incendiary title, or perhaps no such bill, but given the limits of our power—almost total limits—at least I think one should remove the word “cultural”, because there are many communities who see this as an attack on them. Whether or not this is the intent of the government, that is the perception of many communities. There's no need to keep that word in the title.

But we don't have much time, so I'd like to ask you, Professor Aiken, about the substantive question of the age of 18. Are you suggesting that we make that change in this bill? If so, I would ask you how we would do it.

Also, sometimes, as you yourself have implied, there are unintended consequences or implications of things that one does in a positive spirit. Are there unintended consequences or risks or negative factors that might accompany such an amendment?

[Prof. Sharryn Aiken]

In fact, I wouldn't be advocating that this bill simply be amended to address the age of 18; rather, I'm pointing to the international norm, pointing out the inconsistency between what we're advocating internationally and domestically, and saying that if we're going to do anything with the minimum age, surely we need to be more careful and thoughtful about it.

My recommendation would be a careful consultation on this issue and more study. But if we were going to do anything, it would be to move it up, not to hit upon 16, and the consultation should be specifically around that issue so as to address what may be some unintended effects.

We need to understand that marriage generally is pretty complicated, because there is federal jurisdiction, there are also provinces involved, and there's an international context. This is no simple matter. But what I wanted to say is that the government's touching upon this issue and fixing it at age 16 doesn't make sense, in light of the international norm and all the evidence we have with respect to the benefits of fixing it at 18.

So government, go back to the drawing board and do some more careful study on this issue in light of the international norms.

[John McCallum, Liberal, Markham—Unionville, ON]

There's also the concern regarding youthful marriage that parental consent alone is not enough, because it could be forced. There could be some role for judicial involvement to ensure that it is legitimate, shall we say, or that the woman is truly giving her consent.

Do you think there's a way in which this bill could be amended to improve that dimension?

[Prof. Sharryn Aiken]

Absolutely, by eliminating the role for parental consent. Arguably, there are very little practical ways to police whether parental consent is happening in such a way that the individuals affected have agency, right? There's no way to assess the degree of pressure exerted, etc.

Certainly, the jurisdictions that have moved toward judicial monitoring of this matter have done so for exactly that reason.

[John McCallum, Liberal, Markham—Unionville, ON]

Maybe this is too technical, but is there a way to amend this bill to make that change?

[Prof. Sharryn Aiken]

Sure there is, if the government wanted to.

My position is that I'm not arguing for amendments. As unrealistic as it may be, I'm advocating that this bill be scrapped. I don't want this bill to see the light of day. There's nothing positive to be gained by it and the very serious issues that it seeks to address need to be addressed through other means.

[John McCallum, Liberal, Markham—Unionville, ON]

I think that's a good note on which to end.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

Mr. Leung.

[Chungsen Leung, Conservative, Willowdale, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you to the witnesses for your excellent presentations.

I wish to address Ms. Papp on the issue of culture.

Canada has one of the most successful multicultural environments in the world. We have the ability to adapt many cultures into this country, yet there are practices like female genital mutilation, which is barbaric or inhuman.

We came together, people from diverse societies or diverse countries of origin, for a common shared value. I do not believe that female genital mutilation is a shared value of Canadians.

I would like you to comment on that particular aspect of some of these barbaric cultures or inhuman cultures, those with female genital mutilation, those approving child marriages, and also some of your experiences in how you address these with the east Asian and southeast Asian cultures, and perhaps some of the other cultures in the Middle East.

[Aruna Papp]

Having travelled internationally, I want to say that Canada is held up as a country where many diverse cultures live very well. We are respected, and our diversity is recognized and celebrated. However, within our cultures—and I will speak for mine because I work with the South Asian community—there are practices that need to be changed. We bring our baggage with us.

My father did. He was a Seventh-day Adventist church pastor. We had six daughters and one son, and he would stand on a pulpit with 500 people there and say things like, “If my daughter ever dated a black man, I'd shoot her. I'll cut her throat”.

They do bring this kind of cultural baggage, and I have been fighting against it and with him, and I have been punished by my family for standing up to it.

Also, there's not just the barbaric female genital mutilation part. We have, and we know, Canadians who give birth to daughters and abandon them in the old country. They don't come back. These are Canadian children. We have not heard from them.

In 2013 in the U.K—and it's written all over the papers—they went and told all the elementary and high school girls that if they were being forced out of the U.K, to put a teaspoon in their underwear. In one month 1,700 girls were stopped at the airport because they had teaspoons in their underwear. They were being taken out to be forced into marriage. That's a lot of young girls.

We have no way of documenting how many Canadian girls are being taken out. The Calgary Herald has several stories.... Two weeks after the training I did with the police they were able to go to the airport and bring a girl back from the airport that her family had left there because she was being forced into a marriage. One of the persons in the community found out about it, knew about it, and said, “This is against the law. Go get her”. They have done it three times.

We need to document these kinds of events because we are not documenting the now. We need processes in place to do that.

I could go on. I've just written another book called Daughters of Kismet, which identifies what's happening in Canada and that nobody's talking about it.

Yes, these are barbaric cultural practices. It's the practices we are bothered about, not the cultures. Cultures are fine. I am a proud Indian Punjabi. I love it. I am who I am, and I cannot change it. I'll be damned if I'm going to let my father and uncles sell their daughters. That's what this is about. It's about the practices, and they are barbaric.

[Chungsen Leung, Conservative, Willowdale, ON]

Let me take it down another angle and ask this. In many of these cultures where they are relatively close, how do we reach into them? How do we get to them before the practice is continued?

[Aruna Papp]

This is how we do it. This bill is an educational tool.

For three months I've been on radio and television saying, “Do you know what is happening in Canada? This is the law. This is...”.

These tools are educational tools that would help us prevent it. We don't have to open up new jails to put new immigrants into jail. That's not the point. The point is you're coming to Canada and these are the laws and you ought to know that.

We said 30 years ago that if we talked about domestic violence, immigrant women would hide, they would never come out, and would never talk about it. Today more immigrant women than ever in the history of this country are coming forward and reporting domestic violence.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

Thank you, Ms. Papp.

Unfortunately, we could go on, but our time has expired.

I want to thank all of you ladies for coming and giving us all excellent presentations.

Thank you very much.

We will suspend.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

We'll continue, ladies and gentlemen, for our second round and, unfortunately, this will end when the bells ring.

We have one witness, Hannana Siddiqui, the head of policy and research from the Southall Black Sisters.

Can you hear me?

[Hannana Siddiqui, Head of Policy and Research, Southall Black Sisters, As an Individual]

Yes, I can.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

Thank you for participating.

You have a big election going on.

[Hannana Siddiqui]

Yes, we are today.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

We're all following it. We've been having lots of elections here in Canada, too, and some of us are happy and some of us aren't.

[Hannana Siddiqui]

I have no idea what the result is going to be.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

I know. That's the way of politics.

Anyway, thank you for participating. You have up to eight minutes to make a presentation to the committee.