Citizenship and Immigration Committee on March 20th, 2018

[Donnalyn McClymont]

I would say that it is technically possible, but I would also say that we do solid reference checks. We also have, as I said, our four-corner check that we do with our colleagues in security operations. That also includes media scans. We try to get a pretty good sense of the individual more generally.

[Leona Alleslev, Liberal, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

Thank you.

It also says that you are looking at the management of appointees during the appointment process. Does that mean that you're also advised if, in fact, there is disciplinary action, or if you do need to look at consequences for that individual?

[Donnalyn McClymont]

Absolutely. That was a bit coded. You're absolutely right. The expectation there, as I was explaining to Mr. Tilson, is that if the minister felt quite strongly there was reason to remove someone for cause, they would bring that to the GIC's attention, as the GIC is the one who would have hired—

[Leona Alleslev, Liberal, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

It would be discussed.

[Donnalyn McClymont]

—but only the minister would bring it. You wouldn't get it through a regular feedback process from the annual performance reviews within the IRB.

The IRB may come forward to us to say, “We think we've hit the bar of cause” in terms of what's happening with a particular GIC appointee, and we would certainly work with the organization, but ultimately, yes, the expectation would be that the minister would make any formal recommendations to the GIC.

[Leona Alleslev, Liberal, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

Are there any disciplinary actions other than removal, or is it basically that we've come to the point where it's no longer good behaviour, so it's firing, or are there other avenues open?

[Donnalyn McClymont]

Yes. I would point to the legislation, the Immigration and Refugee Protection Act. You may be aware of section 178, which gives the minister the authority to assess, if the chair comes forward for remedial or disciplinary actions. There is quite a formal provision in the legislation that provides for that. That ultimately can trigger a judicial inquiry under the Minister of Justice, which can lead to either disciplinary action or to a recommendation of removal, but that's quite clearly laid out in section 178.

[Leona Alleslev, Liberal, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

Okay.

I'm not completely clear on this, because what we heard from the chair was that there is an annual review process and that managers are expected to audit three decisions and all of that, so they would be looking for a pattern of behaviour in there.

Then, if there is a pattern of behaviour that needs to be addressed, how does it make it from there to you?

[Donnalyn McClymont]

I would say, as I mentioned to Mr. Tilson, it's a pretty high bar for removal for somebody, a good behaviour appointee, and it has—

[Leona Alleslev, Liberal, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

But again, I am not referring to removal, but remedial action.

[Donnalyn McClymont]

Right, for disciplinary action, yes.

Again, I wouldn't want to comment on what the IRB has done in terms of administrative tribunal, but the legislation does give very clear powers for the chair to set out the structure of how he or she wants to manage the organization, and they have obviously chosen a performance framework and an accountability framework.

What I would say is—

[Leona Alleslev, Liberal, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

So the management of appointees during the process is really limited to removal—

[Donnalyn McClymont]

It's got the removal in terms—

[Leona Alleslev, Liberal, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

—at your level.

[Donnalyn McClymont]

Exactly. The bar for us is pretty high in terms of the removal and the cause around the good behaviour, and then there is also the provision in the legislation for this judicial inquiry. Those are really our two levers.

[Leona Alleslev, Liberal, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

Would you happen to know on how many occasions over the last 10 years there has been a removal from the IRB?

[Donnalyn McClymont]

Yes, my understanding is that it's been extremely rare, and I think there may be a handful of cases at best over the past 10 years, and maybe one or two that I might be aware of.

[Leona Alleslev, Liberal, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

When you get recommendations for orders in council, how many of those recommendations have you challenged or recommended against, on average?

[Donnalyn McClymont]

The only tool that we would really have to make a recommendation, once it's come from a minister, would be if there were an issue that arises in the context of due diligence. I wouldn't really be able to divulge to the committee the number of occasions that we've done that.

[Leona Alleslev, Liberal, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

Thank you very much.

[Nick Whalen, Liberal, St. John's East, NL]

Is there any time left, Mr. Chair?

[The Chair, Liberal, Rob Oliphant]

Two minutes.

[Nick Whalen, Liberal, St. John's East, NL]

Thanks.

Ms. McClymont, on page 6 of your presentation material, there were some stats. It would be great if we could have some elaboration of them, so maybe you can table before the clerk some additional information.

In terms of reappointments in particular, the process applies, so how many existing appointees have reapplied, how many haven't, how many of those have made it from reappointment through the process and been recommended for re-selection by the minister, and how many weren't?

You've provided some gender breakdown, but I'd like additional gender breakdown information on how many men and women have applied, both old applicants reapplying and new ones, how many passed the test, and how many were selected, so we have a sense of the flow through the process for selections. That's so we can determine a rate of application for men and women. It would be helpful.

It seems that for the other, the visible minorities, it balances out, but you didn't provide information on indigenous people, so I'm just wondering, at least for the IRB, what the indigenous breakdown is.

[Donnalyn McClymont]

It's a little over 5%. It's quite comparable to what we are seeing in the general GIC community. I would say it's a little bit lower for persons with disabilities.

[Nick Whalen, Liberal, St. John's East, NL]

Okay.

In terms of the appointments—I'm trying to squeeze in one last question—you weren't able to tell us how many are currently available for selection by the minister, and I appreciate that. But Mr. Aterman mentioned the success rate to that stage is only about 10%. You said you've only had about 500 applicants for 70 selections. Perhaps a lot of those are reappointments, but just so we can reconcile that with what Mr. Aterman said, I want to get a sense of whether the level of rigour from application to proposed selection is still in the 10% range or whether it has become less rigorous, maybe 20% or 25%.

Those are all my questions for tabling.