Evidence of meeting #102 for Citizenship and Immigration in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was board.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Conservative
Conservative
David Tilson Conservative Dufferin—Caledon, ON
There are probably a whole bunch of sections in the act that need to be rewritten, really.
Turning to reporting, my understanding is that for complaints made by you or anyone else, the reporting doesn't take place until the end of the year.
Lawyer, As an Individual
I've never seen any reporting on any complaints, and I've scoured the IRB website.
I don't know if you have, and I've missed them.
Barrister and Solicitor, As an Individual
I think there was something recently, but again it was in very vague terms. I think that Global had made an access to information request to try to get that information in terms of the numbers and the outcomes. The last I heard was that a 300-day extension of time had been granted for that information, so it doesn't look as if they're sharing it privately or publicly at all.
Conservative
Barrister and Solicitor, As an Individual
Do you mean disciplinary hearings?
Conservative
David Tilson Conservative Dufferin—Caledon, ON
Yes. I'd be interested in hearing what you, as a member of the law society, have to say about that.
Lawyer, As an Individual
I would say yes. If there's a two-stage process whereby initially the panel investigates and finds that the conduct is so egregious that it should be referred to a disciplinary hearing, then yes, it should be made public. The public deserves to know who these adjudicators are and what they're doing.
In so doing, though, we obviously have to understand that these are refugee claimants, so any information that could identify refugee claimants would definitely need to be kept confidential.
Conservative
David Tilson Conservative Dufferin—Caledon, ON
I think one of you touched on the appointment of board members. Now the Governor in Council appointments come from the minister or cabinet or somebody, and then the public service ones come from some other source. There lies the rub. The question is whether or not those people are competent.
I guess my question is twofold. I think you, Ms. Roushan, said that they should be appointed by a group of experts in the field. I understand that. Who's watching the watchers, I suppose? Who trusts whom? What sort of training should they have?
Lawyer, As an Individual
Just to back up a little bit, I just want to clarify also that when they're hired, they don't take a substantive test on refugee and immigration law. That's one of the problems. It's not just training; it's a lack of knowledge for some members about the fundamentals of the law that they're required to apply.
Once they're hired, then definitely the training process should encompass how to deal with vulnerable claimants and how a fair procedure works, and should also include administrative law principles as required by the Federal Court.
Conservative
David Tilson Conservative Dufferin—Caledon, ON
What are you recommending? Should they all be lawyers?
Lawyer, As an Individual
No, I don't think so. I don't think that lawyers necessarily.... I mean, Sterlin and Cassano were lawyers. I don't know how they were hired. They obviously didn't have any testing.
Conservative
David Tilson Conservative Dufferin—Caledon, ON
They were appointed by the government. Maybe it was our government. I don't know.
Barrister and Solicitor, As an Individual
Sterlin was, but not Cassano, I don't think.
Lawyer, As an Individual
I think Cassano was a public service appointment. She had been a minister's delegate before. From what I have heard, she was a known entity even then. Rumour has it that other members don't know how she was hired either.
NDP
Jenny Kwan NDP Vancouver East, BC
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
Thank you to both of the witnesses.
First off, I would like to emphasize the fact that you went public with your complaints. I think that takes a lot of courage. For you to have done that, you really believe in how the system needs to be improved. I want to acknowledge that.
Both of you have given some very good suggestions on how the system should be improved. Can I assume correctly that you both agree with each other on the suggestions that you outlined in your opening statements on how the system would be improved? Would you both support each other's proposals?
NDP
Jenny Kwan NDP Vancouver East, BC
Great. Thank you.
I am just wondering if either one of you was consulted by the IRB when they embarked on the process of bringing in the new complaints system.
Lawyer, As an Individual
I know that the IRB does hold regular consultation meetings with certain stakeholders. For example, I know, as a member of the RLA, the Refugee Lawyers Association, that the Refugee Lawyers Association was consulted. What they actually did was give a pre-formed chart to the RLA and say, “This is what we want to do. Give us your comments.” It wasn't as if we were building a framework from the beginning with each other. It was, “This is what we're thinking. Give us your comments, and then we can call it consultation.”
The RLA specifically said time and time again that the complaint system needed to be independent, that it can't be under the IRB. That was ignored, as I think Mr. Aterman admitted.
