Citizenship and Immigration Committee on Nov. 27th, 2018

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

In light of this situation, I don't think it served anyone from the point of view of being able to ask questions of the minister. I note that the question that Ms. Rempel asked is entirely legitimate, and we should not have intervened. We should have allowed her to finish, and we would have gone through the rotation accordingly, and we would have been able to ask our questions.

Because this has not happened, Mr. Chair, I would like to move that we invite the minister back to complete the supplementary estimates for another hour at another committee time.

[The Chair, Liberal, Rob Oliphant]

The motion is in order.

[Michelle Rempel, Conservative, Calgary Nose Hill, AB]

I would like a recorded vote.

(Motion negatived: nays 5; yeas 4)

[The Chair, Liberal, Rob Oliphant]

I'm going to suspend the meeting for a few minutes, and we will return in five minutes when the officials have had time to collect their thoughts and when I have had time to collect my thoughts.

We'll resume in five minutes.

[The Chair, Liberal, Rob Oliphant]

I call the committee back to order. We are beginning our second hour. These are almost like separate meetings. This second hour is with the officials continuing and the questions that the committee will have regarding supplementary estimates (A).

We begin a new round.

Mr. Tabbara, you have seven minutes.

[Marwan Tabbara, Liberal, Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to the officials for coming. We apologize on our side for a bit of theatrics that happened in the first hour, but nonetheless, my question will be about collaboration with the provinces of Ontario and Quebec regarding asylum seekers.

Can you go into a bit more detail about what our government has done in terms of outreach and the collaboration that we have with those two provinces specifically?

[Marta Morgan, Deputy Minister, Department of Citizenship and Immigration]

Yes, thank you.

We've been working very closely over a two-year period now with both the Ontario and Quebec governments. Quebec has been a very important partner with us in addressing, in particular, the irregular migration flows that are coming through at Lacolle, Quebec. We have been working operationally on the ground very closely with the province as we manage that flow responsibly, and Quebec has been providing temporary shelter assistance and other assistance to irregular migrants as they seek asylum.

We are in very close co-operation with both the Province of Quebec and the Province of Ontario. We communicate very regularly with their officials. We share information about trends and about what we see happening, both in terms of flows at the border and also within various housing systems. We work with them on any questions they might have, so it's quite a good working relationship at the operational level.

[Marwan Tabbara, Liberal, Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON]

My colleague Mr. Whalen touched upon this a little bit, and the minister added to this as well in his speech. There has been $3.2 million to expand biometrics screening, and the minister said that our allies had done this before. They've invested in this biometrics screening. We're maybe a little bit late on it but we're investing now.

In our last meeting yesterday, we talked about the global impact for migration. Will it help with safe, orderly and regular migration if we do biometrics checks?

[Marta Morgan]

We see biometrics as the foundation of identity management within the immigration system. The implementation of biometrics will allow us to establish the identity of individuals who are coming to Canada on visas either to visit, to study or to work.

That is really helpful, I think, in general, in terms of good migration management, to know who is coming. Eventually with the entry-exit initiative—and there's a bill already in the House on that—we'll be able to know who's coming and who's leaving. Biometrics are very foundational to that. It's a really important initiative for us from the perspective of management of the entire immigration continuum.

[Marwan Tabbara, Liberal, Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON]

My next question will also be about migrants.

We often hear that migrants are a burden and a problem for Canadian societies. We hear the rhetoric coming from individuals in society. We really want to bring out the success stories.

My region is known for the high-tech sector in the Kitchener-Waterloo region, and I've met individuals who have come to Canada as refugees or they've come here at a very young age. These migrants have been successful. They've started up companies, and they've employed many people in our region. Can you specifically speak about the economic benefit for Canada?

[Paul MacKinnon, Assistant Deputy Minister, Strategic and Program Policy, Department of Citizenship and Immigration]

Mr. Chair, I just have a few comments.

I think you're asking about refugees in particular. We do see good results with refugees over a period of a number of years. In 2016, for example, refugees accounted for 3% of the labour force, while immigrants made up about 24%, but considering they're coming with many needs when they arrive, we think those numbers are good.

The labour market participation rate of refugees is just around 79%, which is consistent with the Canadian-born population.

Just to give you some facts on earnings, while the entry earnings of refugees are the lowest of all the immigrant categories—in particular in terms of government-assisted refugees, the average earnings for refugees are just around $20,000—that is in the early years of arrival. Then 10 years after landing, the share of refugees who report employment income on par with the Canadian average is just about 65%.

Those years in Canada when they become integrated and learn language skills is when you start to see those numbers really tick up.

[Marwan Tabbara, Liberal, Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON]

If these numbers show that they're on par with Canadians in society, would you say that investment in education and certain social programs would help with these numbers?

These numbers are already great numbers, but do you think that they would be even better if we're investing in these sorts of resources?

[Paul MacKinnon]

Certainly for the settlement service money that our department manages with some hundreds of groups across the country—with a fairly large percentage of that money being focused on language training—we think it's obviously critical that those investments are made, in particular for the refugee immigrants, I would say, who perhaps arrive with higher needs than some other immigrants when they arrive.

Those investments are critical.

[Marwan Tabbara, Liberal, Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON]

I think just over $1 million is allotted for outreach and to talk about the misconceptions of those asylum seekers. I know that we did a lot of outreach in certain states in the U.S. and also in Latin America.

Has this been successful for us? I think we've seen the numbers of asylum seekers drop, specifically coming from particular regions.

[Marta Morgan]

Yes, we think this outreach has been very helpful.

One thing we saw—particularly the first summer when we had a lot of people who were Haitians coming—was a lack of information about the Canadian asylum system and what it takes and what it requires to be a legitimate asylum seeker.

Providing that kind of information, in our view, has certainly been helpful.

[The Chair, Liberal, Rob Oliphant]

Thank you.

Ms. Rempel.

[Michelle Rempel, Conservative, Calgary Nose Hill, AB]

Thank you, Chair.

Just with the time I have, I'd like to put something on the record. My colleague opposite, Mr. Tabbara, used the term “theatrics” in his statement. One of my colleagues in the Liberal party wrote a very excellent article about microaggressions.

I did a lot of research on privilege and relevancy and I came to this meeting prepared. To use the term “theatrics” for something that is kind of misogynist. It's that kind of anti-feminist word that I'm not sure he would use for a male colleague.

I would also like to say one more thing. I've been called “hysterical”—

[Marwan Tabbara, Liberal, Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON]

Mr. Chair, on a point of privilege, I would say that to anyone: a male, a female or someone who doesn't conform to a certain gender. I would say that to anyone.

I truly believe that at certain times you do use theatrics and I will stand with that statement.

[The Chair, Liberal, Rob Oliphant]

Speak to the chair.

[Marwan Tabbara, Liberal, Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON]

I apologize to the chair.

It was a waste of the minister's time. He did swear an oath and I'm not going to get more into this, but we've already spent a lot of time in the first hour.

[Michelle Rempel, Conservative, Calgary Nose Hill, AB]

Bosc and Gagnon is fairly clear on rules of order and decorum, and you just made a good, pointed speech around casting aspersions on people and proceeding with decorum. I realize that my colleagues might be frustrated by the fact that I come to meetings prepared with relevant questions that the minister has perhaps not replied to, but to characterize the pursuit of information in the parliamentary committee as “theatrics” is like, to have a prime minister who's a feminist, to say that, it's a little fake to me.

I just want to put it on the record, in terms of my colleague responding to my point of order, to make him perhaps have a thought about his language. Maybe I'm just better at my job, but I reject that term and I would ask him, in his point of order, to apologize. Thank you.

[Marwan Tabbara, Liberal, Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON]

Mr. Chair, I wouldn't apologize for that, and the reason being is that we've repeatedly seen from that member that every time she questions witnesses, she allows them maybe six seconds to speak. For the three years that she has been on this committee, she's never apologized—

[The Chair, Liberal, Rob Oliphant]

I'm going to actually call this discussion over. The committee can overrule me on this, but I would like to move on with your question. I think you wanted to make your point. Your point was made.

[Michelle Rempel, Conservative, Calgary Nose Hill, AB]

Thank you, Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Rob Oliphant]

Those who have ears to hear will hear.

Your time will continue. Thank you.