Citizenship and Immigration Committee on April 3rd, 2019

[Noureddine Belhocine]

Thank you for the question.

About a year ago, the Quebec Ministry of Immigration, Diversity and Inclusion finally agreed, after we exerted pressure, to admit asylum seekers into its part-time French courses. They only let them in about a year ago, so it hasn't been long. Before that, they were not entitled to French classes.

I believe the asylum-seeking process or the request for refugee status is under federal jurisdiction. I think it would be good for the federal government to think about a formula to provide language learning services, in either French or English, or both ideally, to that clientele, because they are going to continue to have these admission problems at the provincial level.

Every year, we try to obtain something for the asylum seekers but we get nowhere. The provincial government refuses, alleging that these persons are not entitled to these courses since they may not stay in Canada, and also because it's a matter of federal jurisdiction, and so on.

I believe there are no programs at all.

[David Tilson, Conservative, Dufferin—Caledon, ON]

Thank you, sir.

Ms. Dienhoff, have you had this experience, and if you have, do you have recommendations as to what this committee could tell Parliament?

[Kim Dienhoff]

IELTS is a testing organization, as opposed to a language learning organization. We don't have direct experience in this space, but I think this is a common problem in the English-speaking countries that we work with, such as Australia, the U.K., New Zealand and Canada.

I think each country does something a bit different in the types of programs they offer people. There has been a lot of debate globally about the accepted level of language skills of people who come as refugees. I think it's a common problem that they do struggle to meet the requirements.

I think Canada has a relatively welcoming level 4. I think New Zealand has a slightly lower requirement, but everybody else's requirement is the same as or higher than Canada's.

[David Tilson, Conservative, Dufferin—Caledon, ON]

Ms. Foster, if MP Miller knew you were here, he would be here.

My question may not apply to you. It may be more of an urban type of question, but perhaps you could comment.

Are there particular challenges in language training or other services for those people who have been victims of genocide or other violent atrocities?

I'm thinking particularly of Yazidi women and girls. We've heard evidence that this group in particular has experienced difficulties in adjusting in their time here.

[Andy Foster]

Yes, definitely PTSD and other problems from their coming from backgrounds like that have has caused problems. It's hard to focus on studying English when you have no way to get help with that first.

Yes. We've definitely had that experience where it's hard for students to focus, and a lot of other issues come out. English is almost the least of their worries at that point.

[David Tilson, Conservative, Dufferin—Caledon, ON]

I don't know if you've put your mind to this, but do you have any recommendations to the committee on how the federal government should deal with this?

[Andy Foster]

Absolutely. Having more programs available for people when they come, letting them know they have psychotherapists and the like whom they can go to for the first year—in smaller towns, people often don't even know that's available for them—and translators and interpreters, for sure.

[The Chair, Liberal, Rob Oliphant]

Thank you.

You did make up the time, by the way.

[David Tilson, Conservative, Dufferin—Caledon, ON]

You're a good man, Mr. Chairman.

[The Chair, Liberal, Rob Oliphant]

I made sure of it.

Ms. Kwan.

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to all the witnesses as well.

I'd like to first ask about the language assessment piece, if I may, Ms. Dienhoff and Ms. Sellar. One of the issues I often hear from our temporary foreign workers is that caregivers must have a grade 12 equivalency from their home country to successfully make an application. Often, for some reason, that equivalency is not met. It's very difficult for them to achieve that, and then of course they have to have language testing as well and they have to achieve level 5. That is also very difficult for them.

Often the tests are administered in such a way that the writing, the speaking, the reading, etc., are combined, as opposed to separate pieces. It could be that a person could do well in three of the categories, but not in the writing part, let's say, but they can't take these tests separately.

I wonder if you can comment on that and see whether there's a way to assist these individuals so they have a better opportunity to pass these language testing requirements.

[Kim Dienhoff]

I think IELTS does offer the speaking test as a separate test from the other three components. I think that's helpful, and it's often done in a private one-on-one situation, which is great for the test taker, particularly if the person is struggling a little, because the examiner can help to make them feel comfortable and draw out a better response from them.

I think the other components of the test often depend on the way the test has been constructed. Each part of the IELTS test is...we're only looking at that part, even though when you're doing a speaking test you're also listening. For example, we're only assessing the speaking in that component.

We've certainly thought about being able to do that. Of course, it would require the government to recognize that type of thing. We'd be happy to put that on the table.

I think another alternative, particularly when you're looking at people who are coming in perhaps on family visas and in the types of situations where they're not going to be working in a professional environment, then we do also have a level 2 skills test, which would simply be a 20-minute speaking and listening type of test. That is currently used in the U.K., and I think that the governments I talk to around the world are starting to move toward this a little more, as a better option for those who don't require the high-level professional skills.

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

I would love it if you would share with our committee any additional information that you can on separating out the different test components and on how the government can look at doing that in the assessments.

I'm an ESL kid. I come from an immigrant family. I have to tell you that for working parents who are trying to put food on the table and trying to get their language upgrades to a certain level, it is very onerous. It's very, very onerous. So the easier we can make it, I think, the faster they will succeed. My parents succeeded here in Canada, but I know a lot of newcomers today who are still struggling with that.

I would welcome any information that you may have for us to make that process easier for newcomers.

[Kim Dienhoff]

Thank you. We would be happy to provide that.

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

Ms. Foster, on the question of supporting newcomers for resettlement and particularly in rural communities, we've heard from other witnesses in different settings that what we really require is some infrastructure in the community to provide those kinds of welcoming opportunities for newcomers in rural communities.

What are some of the specific things you think the government can do to support communities such as yours to welcome newcomers and help them resettle?

[Andy Foster]

I think having a representative come every second month or so so that people from the whole area could come to ask questions and volunteers who are teaching ESL and that type of thing could get a little bit of training would really help. They feel pretty left out, I would say. I think they get discouraged. If there were a little something from the government side out there, I think you would get more people wanting to resettle.

[The Chair, Liberal, Rob Oliphant]

I just need to interrupt, as you've come to the end of your five minutes.

I need unanimous consent to continue. We could do one or two more, but it's up to you.

[David Tilson, Conservative, Dufferin—Caledon, ON]

No.

[The Chair, Liberal, Rob Oliphant]

Okay.

We're going to adjourn the meeting now.

Thank you, witnesses. If you have anything else you would like to submit to our committee, you are invited to do so in writing. If you want any advice, the clerk can help you.

The meeting is adjourned.