Evidence of meeting #25 for Citizenship and Immigration in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was ukraine.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Michael Bociurkiw  Former Spokesperson, Special Monitoring Mission to Ukraine, Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe, As an Individual
Aleksandr Galkin  Director, The Right to Protection
Iryna Dovhan  As an Individual
Gennadii Afanasiev  As an Individual
Oleksandr Gryshchenko  As an Individual
Chantal Desloges  Lawyer, Desloges Law Group, As an Individual
Janet Dench  Executive Director, Canadian Council for Refugees
Brian Dyck  Chair, Canadian Refugee Sponsorship Agreement Holders Association

2:25 p.m.

Former Spokesperson, Special Monitoring Mission to Ukraine, Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe, As an Individual

Michael Bociurkiw

Yes. I'll be brief so that the other person can also speak.

It's easy to be very critical of Ukraine. However, there are bright lights, and of course one of those is civil society—a very strong civil society. It continues to thrive in Ukraine; however, they need support because resources are very scarce in some areas.

That international connection, especially with Canada, is very important. Our ambassador to Ukraine, Roman Waschuk, when I sat with him last time, outlined some of the co-operation areas that exist. One of them, for example, is between Toronto Sunnybrook Hospital and the children's hospital in Lviv in western Ukraine. That has helped a great deal in boosting that hospital's capacity to operate.

As I already mentioned, media is another area, and IT is a big one. The problem we have here in Canada is that we have great ideas, we create great IT firms, but then what happens is that they can't raise money for second-stage financing or growth, and—guess what?—they end up going to the United States. I would like to see whether there are areas in the IT sector to explore that could help our Canadian IT companies survive and thrive even more.

There are many areas to explore. I don't think this is the role only of the government. Perhaps there could be a way to encourage the private sector to support this. I, for example, have encouraged my own premier, Christy Clark, to think about doing a provincial trade mission to Ukraine to explore such ties, and I think other provincial governments should do likewise.

2:25 p.m.

Liberal

Arif Virani Liberal Parkdale—High Park, ON

I think the concluding of the trade agreement will help in that regard.

Mr. Galkin, could you address the point about supporting civil society to raise awareness about what's going on in Ukraine, perhaps assisting with institutions in Canada or assisting institutions in Ukraine? Do you have any thoughts on that?

2:25 p.m.

Director, The Right to Protection

Aleksandr Galkin

Thank you for the question.

First of all, the civil society badly needs some technical support, because most of the support coming from the international donors is handed off to either international organizations or UN organizations. Then most of the civil society actually is a bit blocked from support. For instance, the humanitarian country team is composed of international organizations and UN organizations.

Civil society actually needs some skills. It needs to be trained. For instance, when we speak about media and information, most of the grassroots organizations don't have any idea how to weave their messages to the targeted audiences in media terms. I think there is also a great need for information strategy for the government, which does not have any strategy for composing messages involving IDPs and for how to improve the overall understanding to raise awareness of IDPs among the population.

In terms of health, psycho-social assistance is still the great need.

2:30 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Borys Wrzesnewskyj

Thank you, Mr. Galkin.

Ms. Rempel, take five minutes, please.

2:30 p.m.

Conservative

Michelle Rempel Conservative Calgary Nose Hill, AB

Thank you.

I would like to carry on the stream of questioning around supporting civil society infrastructure, or just general social infrastructure in Ukraine, to assist with some of these issues. Canada has been assisting in Ukraine through Operation Unifier for a while. I know that we've assisted through this mission in training Ukrainian troops in areas of explosive ordnance and disposal, military police training, medical training, flight safety training, logistics modernization. Has this operation been useful in terms of improving the lives of civilian Ukrainians?

2:30 p.m.

Former Spokesperson, Special Monitoring Mission to Ukraine, Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe, As an Individual

Michael Bociurkiw

It's a very good question. I think this type of assistance takes a long time to actually show itself, to materialize, and I'm not only talking about Ukraine but many of the countries I've worked in, especially for UNICEF. The important thing is that we don't look at short-term gains, but long-term gains.

Again, I mention the C-word, corruption in Ukraine, and I think there Canada can assist on two levels. One is the political pressure. In order for corruption to really disappear in Ukraine or to be diminished, if we can put it that way, political pressure needs to be leveraged. Also, and I'm not sure the Prime Minister brought it up during his recent visit, but Joe Biden, in his previous visit, sure let the Ukrainians know that they need to deal with it.

The other one is the practical training. Supporting organizations that monitor corruption, that monitor civil liberties, is very important. Again, I mention this because a lot of countries can spend a lot of money on training, that sort of thing, but if this pervasiveness, this attitude of corruption continues, these gains will be hard to realize, I'm afraid to say. Again, this observation comes from what I've seen in other countries as well.

I think our embassy in Ukraine, especially under Ambassador Waschuk has done a really good job in terms of mapping out and exploring how we can get the best bang for our buck in Ukraine. For example, he's talked a lot about that thriving IT sector, especially in western Ukraine, which is actually doing business with some world-class companies, including Canadian Tire, believe it or not. We need to help these sectors survive and thrive as much as we can.

2:30 p.m.

Conservative

Michelle Rempel Conservative Calgary Nose Hill, AB

Just in the time I have remaining, I know that Operation Unifier will be up for renewal in 2017. Do you believe this is worthwhile and that the Canadian government should extend this mission? You spoke about it taking time to see the results of this type of initiative. Would your recommendation be to extend the mission?

2:30 p.m.

Former Spokesperson, Special Monitoring Mission to Ukraine, Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe, As an Individual

Michael Bociurkiw

Yes, absolutely.

I think our assistance to Ukraine has been very targeted so that we don't just take a broad-based approach. From everything I've seen, I think we've targeted sectors that hold a lot of promise, and this includes, again, that IT sector, because there are so many Ukrainians who have expertise.

I'll give you a quick example, and this was at the Canada-Ukraine business forum on display. It's the only one of its kind in the world. There's a company in western Ukraine that has developed an interactive table for restaurants, for customers to come and order goods. They can build their menus, and that sort of thing. In fact, the Prime Minister was giving it a test drive when he was in Toronto. The problem is that they don't have the capacity to seek seed funding or more funding to hit that global market. I think that's perhaps another area where we can have bang for our buck.

2:35 p.m.

Conservative

Michelle Rempel Conservative Calgary Nose Hill, AB

You spoke about the corruption, and obviously this is a very important issue with regard to Canada's relationship with the Ukraine. Before the 2015 federal election, motions calling for the Government of Canada to adopt Magnitsky legislation and sanctions were unanimously adopted by the House of Commons. There is legislation before the House right now. Do you think it's important for Canada to send a unified, strong message in this particular regard to deal with some of the issues you mentioned?

2:35 p.m.

Former Spokesperson, Special Monitoring Mission to Ukraine, Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe, As an Individual

Michael Bociurkiw

I think we have to be very strong in speaking with the government, and not only the Government of Ukraine but with other governments, too, where corruption is a big problem. I'm not going to name names; you know what the countries are. This is something that for some reason doesn't seem to go away very easily. It's endemic in the judiciary, law enforcement, and a whole number of areas.

We have to remember, too, that this culture of corruption is something that is probably mostly a legacy of Soviet times. These things are not easy to brush away, but I think by now we're so far into the administration of President Poroshenko, that more concrete results could have been seen.

I should mention just briefly—

2:35 p.m.

Conservative

Michelle Rempel Conservative Calgary Nose Hill, AB

With my time remaining, could you comment specifically on the Magnitsky legislation and Canada's support for that.

2:35 p.m.

Former Spokesperson, Special Monitoring Mission to Ukraine, Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe, As an Individual

Michael Bociurkiw

Which is tied with seeing improvements.... I think if legislators feel that all political levers have been expended, then you need to look at other tools to get a government to adhere to international standards. I'm not a big advocate of that type of tool, but if we feel that we've expended all other avenues, then that should be done.

Just very quickly, I'm sorry I forgot to mention this. The other big role Canada has played, of course, is in election observation missions. It's very important that we continue to have the resources and make our people available to monitor the conduct of elections throughout Ukraine.

2:35 p.m.

Conservative

Michelle Rempel Conservative Calgary Nose Hill, AB

I'm just wondering if any—

2:35 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Borys Wrzesnewskyj

Thank you.

2:35 p.m.

Conservative

Michelle Rempel Conservative Calgary Nose Hill, AB

Oh, sorry.

Thanks.

2:35 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Borys Wrzesnewskyj

Mr. Ehsassi, five minutes, please.

2:35 p.m.

Liberal

Ali Ehsassi Liberal Willowdale, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

First of all, I want to thank everyone for appearing before this committee. It's been very helpful, focusing on various aspects of the situation in Ukraine and how Canada can best assist.

Michael, you touched on the culture of pervasive impunity. You noted how a variety of international organizations are saying that the situation there is verging on war crimes. We've heard from witnesses who have recounted the atrocities they've been subjected to.

This bring us to the amazing work you're doing in monitoring the situation, in cataloguing all of the atrocities that have been going on for two years. The issue is transitional justice. Do you think transitional justice does have a role to play? Is that something, given our Canadian know-how, we should be supporting? Especially given that there has been a cataloguing of atrocities, one would think we'd have to put it to good use. Of course, we can't use the European Court of Human Rights, but there must be other avenues that should be explored and considered. I say that because unless there is some accountability and there is some semblance of justice, this whole concept of reconciliation will never take place. What are your views on the scope of transitional justice and the best means to achieve that?

2:35 p.m.

Former Spokesperson, Special Monitoring Mission to Ukraine, Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe, As an Individual

Michael Bociurkiw

First of all, I have to be very careful with what I say, because even though I'm not with the special monitoring mission, I do have former colleagues still very active there. There's a limit to what I can say for safety and security considerations.

You mentioned reconciliation. As this huge community of IDPs stays in their host communities longer and longer...and by the way, a lot of them have also gone to western Ukraine. People in Lviv, for example, have done a marvellous job in terms of hosting them, accepting them, and welcoming them. However, there may come a time when some sort of reconciliation process needs to be put into place to help different sides reconcile their differences.

The other thing Canada should be supporting or encouraging the government to do is this. I think in 2014 a series of round tables around Ukraine took place. People from both sides were invited to speak there. I thought those were very useful. I think about four or five took place, and then for some reason the government dropped the idea. But this sort of process, rotating round tables where people from different sides can speak and talk about their differences and how we can move forward, is very important to do.

2:40 p.m.

Liberal

Ali Ehsassi Liberal Willowdale, ON

Thank you.

Mr. Galkin, I'll ask you, if I could, about the prospects for transitional justice and how Canada can contribute on that front.

2:40 p.m.

Director, The Right to Protection

Aleksandr Galkin

Would you please define the question, if you don't mind?

2:40 p.m.

Liberal

Ali Ehsassi Liberal Willowdale, ON

Yes. A number of different organizations have been very active on the ground, trying to make sure, to the best of their abilities, they catalogue all the atrocities that are taking place. Many are of the view that transitional justice is something that should be taken very seriously.

I'm wondering whether you're familiar with that area, and, given the impediments that are there for the European Court of Human Rights to get involved, whether there are any alternatives you can think of.

2:40 p.m.

Director, The Right to Protection

Aleksandr Galkin

If you are speaking about, for instance, Amnesty International reports last year about inhumane treatments by both sides of the conflict, we believe, for instance, that Ukraine is supposed to sign the Rome Statute in order to be a responsible signatory on one side of this conflict as well, but the government is not very willing to do that. As well, within society there is quite a negative point of view toward these reports, because they actually divulge some negatives and undermine some of the mythology of the Ukrainian government.

I believe justice for the interim period should be very much supported. The Canadian government should also consider how to lobby or to advocate for the implementation of justice for the Government of Ukraine.

2:40 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Borys Wrzesnewskyj

Thank you.

I'd like to thank all the witnesses for their testimony and insights. I would like to particularly thank the three witnesses from Kiev who suffered horrific atrocities while incarcerated in those militarily invaded territories of Ukraine. Thank you so much.

We will now suspend for two minutes to allow the next panel to appear.

2:50 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Borys Wrzesnewskyj

Welcome back.

Appearing before us for the second panel today are Ms. Chantal Desloges, from Desloges Law Group, and Ms. Janet Dench, from the Canadian Council for Refugees, who is appearing by video conference from Montreal. Appearing from Winnipeg by video conference is Mr. Brian Dyck, chair of the Canadian Refugee Sponsorship Agreement Holder Association.

Welcome, and we'll begin with Ms. Desloges, with seven minutes, please, for your opening statement.

2:50 p.m.

Chantal Desloges Lawyer, Desloges Law Group, As an Individual

Thank you very much for the invitation to address you today, and thank you all for giving up your time in your constituencies this summer to look at this really important issue.

I'm an immigration and refugee lawyer. I've been working in this field in one capacity or another since 1994. I am certified by the Law Society of Upper Canada as a specialist in refugee law and also as a specialist in immigration law.

In general, Canada has a refugee resettlement program that is the envy of the world. There are many countries today that are looking at our resettlement program as a model and are thinking about how to adopt various aspects of it for themselves. We are doing really well in this regard, and I'm really proud of us, but I think we can always do things better.

What do I think are the chief problems when it comes specifically to minority communities? Well, first of all, internally displaced persons are completely left out of our Canadian resettlement program. This has to do with the definition, legally, of what is a convention refugee, both internationally and in our domestic law. It requires someone to be outside of their country of nationality to initiate a claim. This concept hearkens back to the time when the convention was drafted in 1951, which was post-World War II, which was a very different type of conflict than the types of things we see today.

The second issue has to do with a lot of the minority, very vulnerable, communities being located physically in areas that are either literally inaccessible safely or at least inaccessible by the UNHCR. The problem this creates is tied to the fact that we have basically wholesale subrogated our refugee selection to the UNHCR.

The UNHCR is a wonderful organization. I admire it very much. However, they have their own limitations, which they themselves will freely admit, and frankly speaking, Canadians didn't elect them to make these kinds of decisions as to what's best for us. The UNHCR simply doesn't and cannot have a presence everywhere in the world where they're needed, and they're hampered by their own logistical and financial concerns. They also do not have a mandate over internally displaced persons. So again, the group of IDPs is completely left out in the cold.

I've read the written deputation sent to the committee by Rainbow Railroad. They are experiencing the same frustrating experiences that many of the other witnesses before you earlier today and yesterday described, including long delays and processing times by the UNHCR and people often living in dangerous conditions while waiting years to get a UNHCR appointment.

May I also say that I think the best thing we can do for vulnerable minorities all over the world is to eradicate ISIL—whatever it takes. That should be a top priority for our society.

On a more immediate level, however, specifically in the immigration context, there are domestic steps we can take. For example, relieving private sponsors of much of the red tape that now binds them up would free the sponsorship communities to help the people they want to help. This has worked very well in past years with specific communities, whether religious, sexual orientation, or ethnic. Allow Canadians to decide for themselves who they want to sponsor, and allow Canadians to put their money where their mouths are and back it up with finances.

Caps on private sponsorships for the sponsorship agreement holders are also a major problem. It's not only the existence of the caps, it's the unpredictability of those caps, which do not allow sponsorship agreement holders from year to year to know how many people they're going to be able to sponsor.

It also, I think, makes sense to draw certain distinctions between groups of people, not to discriminate against those who are not prioritized but to recognize the simple reality that some groups are singled out and horrifically targeted by their persecutors. If the persecutors themselves draw those distinctions, it only makes sense that our response has to be proportionate. Every refugee faces a well-founded fear of persecution, but not every refugee is a genocide victim. Not every refugee is a survivor of sex slavery. We're talking about apples and oranges.

True equality doesn't always mean treating people exactly the same. Sometimes we have to treat groups differently in order to make them equal. All refugees need protection, but not all of them need permanent resettlement. Some of these minority groups will never be able to go home, even after the war is over. This is unlike many of the current displaced groups, who will be able to go home once the war is over. For example, a lot of the Muslim majority will be able to go home and will, in fact, want to go home.

We need to also be asking ourselves very serious questions about why many of the neighbouring Arab countries, some of whom are very wealthy, are not doing more to protect their own co-religionists and people who share a similar culture and background. A very small minority of Middle Eastern countries are shouldering more than their fair share of that burden.

The error of the previous government was not acting fast enough and not acting on a large enough scale to respond to the Middle East refugee crisis. The numbers that were admitted overall were comparatively small. Most of those were privately sponsored, with very few government-assisted, and with very long processing times.

What are the legal and administrative tools available to us to alleviate some of these problems that are facing us? The first is the increased use of the humanitarian and compassionate provisions in section 25 of the Immigration and Refugee Protection Act to cover off situations where people are not outside their country of origin—for example, internally displaced people—and people who do not have UNHCR recognition. That would cover people who are not able, for whatever reason, to access UNHCR registration or to access UNHCR camps.

I'll give you an example. I had two or three files in which I had previously requested section 25 H and C discretion from the immigration department, and the processing office in Winnipeg had absolutely no clue how to handle a request like that in the context of a sponsorship for a refugee. It was unbelievable to me that this could have been the case, but it was the case: they did not know how to handle it, statutory discretion. For this reason, I think if we're going to use section 25 more liberally, then there will have to be a specific directive written to visa officers, and immigration officers inland, on how to exercise that discretion and on the proper parameters for it.

Second, lift or at least better manage the caps on sponsorship agreement holders. Private sponsors are really excited right now, and they're willing to back up their enthusiasm with their wallets. I say let them loose. Let them sponsor however many they're prepared to financially support.

In addition, in terms of waiving interviews for groups like the Yazidis, who testified this morning, why not waive their interviews with CIC? Everyone knows they're refugees. They're prima facia refugees. They really only need to pass their security and medical screening. Why are we interviewing every single one of them? Not only does it create backlogs but it also creates a situation where it's difficult to send Canadian visa officers into these various areas without a risk to their security.

I actually raised this in an interview not that long ago with IRCC personnel. I was told that they can't waive the interviews. They have to interview them for security. That didn't really make sense to me, because every immigrant to Canada under every category has to pass a security check. The vast majority of people who immigrate to Canada do not have to do a personal interview for a security check. That doesn't make sense. When I proposed that perhaps the interviews could be done by Skype or by video conference, I was told, no, that was not suitable, because it wouldn't allow someone to judge their credibility properly. That's interesting, because many refugee claims in Canada are adjudicated by video conference. Why is it okay for inland claims but not okay for outside of Canada claims? This could alleviate a lot of the backlog.

Finally, there's the more systematic use of temporary resident permits under section 24 of IRPA for urgent cases involving immediate risk. TRPs are sometimes issued, but I find they're issued very sparingly. Perhaps a more liberal use of that particular vehicle would be very helpful. Reports about attacks on Yazidi communities, for example, first came out in August 2014. In conjunction with the Office for Refugees of the Archdiocese of Toronto, who I believe testified yesterday, and One Free World International, who I believe will testify tomorrow, I helped to draft a proposal to CIC. This was in early 2015 under the previous government. That proposal was to do with a project for resettlement, a small-scale project for women survivors of sex slavery from ISIS in the minority Yazidi community. My expertise was strictly on the legal side. I know nothing about the logistics of such things.

No action was taken on that proposal despite numerous follow-ups. That proposal was again renewed when the new government came into power with the new minister, and again no action was taken on that despite several follow-ups. The only time that proposal got any attention was after the last sitting of this committee, when these similar issues were discussed. It appears that this now is on the right track, and I just want to say thank you to the committee and congratulate you on your work, because it is making a difference.

Thank you.