Evidence of meeting #25 for Citizenship and Immigration in the 42nd Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was ukraine.
A video is available from Parliament.
Conservative
Bob Saroya Conservative Markham—Unionville, ON
You are a director of the Right to Protection charity fund. How would you like to see Canada helping out from your side?
Director, The Right to Protection
Thank you for your question.
First of all I think that now, after two years since the onset of the conflict, when it comes to the displaced population in Ukraine, we should understand that this is to some extent quite an unusual crisis. It's mostly a pensioner crisis because 65% of the IDPs are pensioners, and children and single mothers are 20%-plus.
Most of the IDPs fall under the vulnerability criteria, and their integration is quite difficult. When we have people who are well it's much easier to integrate them, and when we have people who can sustain themselves, such as young couples in their twenties to forties who can move, they integrate on their own. The government knows they are there to help those people, and now in addition there is humanitarian assistance, which is of paramount importance to those who are on both sides.
In the government-controlled areas there is a great need for integration efforts to be done, and they should be done in a holistic manner. The Canadian government used to go through CIDA, but now CIDA does not arrange effectively in Ukraine. As a result, there is now direct aid from the Government of Canada. I think the Government of Canada can consider an increase of its help and support.
Civil society was a first responder to the crisis. During those two years, the civil society brought forward—
Director, The Right to Protection
—many sanctions of the Government of Ukraine, so the civil society also.... This is a very new civil society and—
Conservative
Bob Saroya Conservative Markham—Unionville, ON
Mr. Chair, the last comment is for the first victim who spoke, Mr. Gryshchenko.
I hope the person who tortured you with electric shocks, among other ways, will face the court in the Hague one of these days.
Thank you.
Jenny Kwan NDP Vancouver East, BC
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
Thank you to all the witnesses for their presentations.
My question is for you, Michael. In terms of action from Canada, you name some items. There's been a lot of discussion in the series of meetings that we've had about the internally displaced peoples. One suggestion that has been brought forward is the former program we had in Canada, the source country classification. I wonder whether or not that is an option for consideration and what your thoughts are with respect to that program, whether that would assist in this instance.
Former Spokesperson, Special Monitoring Mission to Ukraine, Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe, As an Individual
Honestly, I've been overseas for so long that I'm not very familiar with the source country program. Does it allow a kind of special status?
NDP
Jenny Kwan NDP Vancouver East, BC
The source country category basically allows for people in their country of origin to make an application without having to go through the UNHCR process or referral.
Former Spokesperson, Special Monitoring Mission to Ukraine, Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe, As an Individual
Okay, yes. I think it's a great idea. We do call them IDPs, but basically these are refugees in their own country. I hate to say it, but it's looking more and more that this territory may not go back to Ukrainian control because of what the rebel side has done. It's digging in. It's looking like a frozen conflict now. Even if it were to return to the Ukrainian government, the reconstruction process would be in the billions of dollars range, and there would also have to be a massive kind of reconciliation process. I personally would like to see that. As I said, among these IDPs are very many professionals and they would be a contribution to the Canadian economy, to Canadian society, and not a drain. You know, we've seen how great a contribution the Syrian refugees have already made to Canada, so I think the same thing would happen. I've seen many examples where people from many countries have gone overseas to develop educational skills or work experience, and they go back to their country and make a huge difference.
I'll give one final note, because I think it needs to be said. Recently, as many of you know, there was a high-level Canada-Ukraine business forum in Toronto. One of the big issues in Ukraine right now is endemic corruption. Young people—and I know a lot of them; it's not just anecdotal—have a tough time making a go. They've done all the right things. They have a proper education and a great upbringing, yet they can't find a level playing field. Hence even more reason for them to come to a place like Canada, gain those kinds of values and work experience, educational experience, and go back when the time is right and contribute to the rebuilding of Ukraine.
NDP
Jenny Kwan NDP Vancouver East, BC
Thank you.
The other suggestion that you made was around a similar program to that of the domestic workers from the Philippines. Are you thinking about a temporary foreign worker type of program for the professionals, or are you thinking more about an immigration stream? I'm just trying to get clarification.
Former Spokesperson, Special Monitoring Mission to Ukraine, Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe, As an Individual
I would like to see an immigration strategy. I've seen how the so-called new wave of Ukrainians have dealt with themselves here in Canada. They're doing very well. Borys, for sure, would know more about this than I do. Many of them are contributing solidly to the Canadian economy. Yes, that would be a good thing to do, practically and economically. I think it would also send a good signal to Ukraine. Our Canadian Prime Minister was recently in Ukraine. He had a very impressive visit and reiterated Canada's support for the country. This would be sending a signal that, yes, we do support them and the door is open to come to Canada. I think the sooner that happens, the better.
NDP
Jenny Kwan NDP Vancouver East, BC
On the refugee stream, I'm wondering if you are considering more of a government-assisted refugee stream or a privately sponsored refugee stream. In the other scenarios where we discussed this, in fact, I think pretty well all of the groups were suggesting a privately sponsored stream. I wonder if you can comment on that.
Former Spokesperson, Special Monitoring Mission to Ukraine, Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe, As an Individual
There's a huge Ukrainian diaspora community here in Canada. I think that if this were privately sponsored by families or whatever, by the community, that would work very well. There are huge resources in the Ukrainian community. It's one of the most, if not the most active Ukrainian diaspora communities in the world. I think this could be done without putting a strain on government resources.
I've worked in the OSCE, so I'm pretty practical thinking, and I think from a public perception point of view it would be much better handled by Ukrainians, by families, and even non-Ukrainians who want to support Ukraine in one way or another.
NDP
Jenny Kwan NDP Vancouver East, BC
In terms of numbers, do you have any sense of the kinds of numbers that perhaps governments should be considering?
Former Spokesperson, Special Monitoring Mission to Ukraine, Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe, As an Individual
One thing I've learned from the OSCE is not to speculate, but I think because I'm no longer with them, I can do a little speculation. My guess, and this is entirely a guess, would be in the tens of thousands, perhaps 100,000-plus. Again, Canada ranks very high in the Ukrainian psyche because of the support Canada has given and because of the visit by the Prime Minister.
Just quickly, aside from providing opportunities for them to come here either temporarily or permanently, Canada has historically played a very big role, for example, in the development of the media sector in Ukraine. I neglected to mention that aside from journalists having to flee Donetsk and Luhansk, many of the media institutions such as newspapers, radio stations, and TV stations in the areas previously occupied by the rebels—in Sloviansk, for example—were totally destroyed.
Even though these areas are back under government control, there aren't sufficient resources for these outlets to get up and running again, so perhaps the government could look at an assistance program through our aid arm to help Ukrainian journalists upgrade their skills, but also to put some of these media outlets back on stream.
NDP
Former Spokesperson, Special Monitoring Mission to Ukraine, Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe, As an Individual
Yes, correct.
NDP
Jenny Kwan NDP Vancouver East, BC
What else could Canada do perhaps in conjunction with or in collaboration with the international community? What are other countries doing, and what are the opportunities in which Canada can work collaboratively with them? I think international aid would be one aspect of it, along with the other streams.
Former Spokesperson, Special Monitoring Mission to Ukraine, Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe, As an Individual
International aid, indeed. When I was in Kiev the last time, the signals I was getting from colleagues there—and I won't name them—was that a lot more money is needed in terms of development aid from Canada to Ukraine.
I think one of the areas where Canada could play a very leading role is again in this battle against corruption, in helping, for example, to train officials to deal with that sort of thing. Also, Canada has been active in terms of training police officials, border guards, that sort of thing. That needs to be maintained, if not increased. It's really supporting those key institutions to develop to the level expected of a modern country.
The other area where we have been very active, and by “we” I mean Canada, and where we cannot let go is in the area of public health. I'm sidetracking a bit, but because I have expertise in this area, I'm going to say it. Believe it or not, in areas controlled by the Ukrainian government have the lowest immunization rates of anywhere in the world. It's lower than Somalia and places like that. A lot of this has to do with corruption, but a lot of it is because there just isn't the expertise there to do things like procure childhood vaccines, that sort of thing. Canada has contributed money for things like childhood vaccines, but it's the whole system that needs to be looked at and reformed.
Finally, Canada has played a very key role. We have great ambassadors at the OSCE and in Ukraine in terms of participating in finding solutions to bring peace back to Ukraine. That's what everyone wants, of course, through participation in Vienna and the Minsk accords. That sort of participation needs to continue. We need to find a solution to this conflict, because it has cost too many lives and displaced too many people.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Borys Wrzesnewskyj
Thank you.
Mr. Virani, the next round is yours. It's a seven-minute round.
Liberal
Arif Virani Liberal Parkdale—High Park, ON
Thank you very much to everyone. To Michael, and to everyone who's joining us from Mariupol and Kiev, I would say, duzhe dyakuyu. Thank you very much for being here.
My riding in Toronto is home to part of that diaspora you were mentioning, Michael. The country, as you have accurately indicated, is replete with a huge Ukrainian diaspora that dates back 125 years. It is very well integrated, very well established, and very vocal. They communicate to people like the chair, and they communicate to people like myself about the concerns they see on the ground.
I wanted to start my questioning by asking you a bit about a fact we've heard a lot about here today, the scope of the displacement. The sheer numbers are staggering, as Mr. Saroya outlined. In the span of two years you're looking at nearly two million people in movement.
Can you describe to us a little about the movement of people leaving the Donbass, how far they are moving within the country, and what impact that's having on local infrastructure and institutions in the rest of Ukraine?
Former Spokesperson, Special Monitoring Mission to Ukraine, Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe, As an Individual
Okay, sure. That's a great question.
The map shows where most of them have gone, but most want to stay in areas close to the Donetsk and Luhansk. Many of them are Russian-speaking, and you find that in oblasts closest to the conflict zone. These are Russian-speaking areas. That close proximity allows them to cross back and forth to check on their properties, agricultural lands, and so on.
The problem is that many of these oblasts are becoming overwhelmed. As far back as 2014 the OSCE had reported that the capacity for NGOs, for civil society groups, and for oblast governments to support IDPs was already running out. I don't mean to be too harsh on the Ukrainian government, but they were woefully unprepared for this massive outflow of people. Probably any government would be, but it took a long time for them to get up to speed.
I can tell you that cities like Mariupol and Dnipropetrovsk, where a lot of the IDPs have gone, have basically said, “No vacancy, we can't possibly support any more”. It's important for two things to happen. One is for collective centres where IDPs live to continue to be supported. The other one is that they need to be found permanent housing. A lot of them are there with their children, and they brought very little with them, so this integration process needs to happen more.
The other thing I can tell you, aside from housing needs—I mentioned the lack of civil documentation—is that political rights are also going to be important if they're going to stay in areas controlled by the Ukrainian government. Elections are coming up, so they need to be part of that as well.
Finally, I think a lot has been said already about their mobility crossing back and forth over the contact line. Aside from being held up for hours or overnight by both sides at checkpoints, there's also the threat that if people are stationary along the contact line, with a lot of shelling happening, you're putting this massive number of people in danger. I believe over any given month as many as 100,000 civilians cross back and forth over the contact line.
Aside from the shelling, you also have the threat of land mines. Neither side has lived up to their full commitment to put signage to warn that there are land mines present. This is a responsibility they have to take upon themselves.
Liberal
Arif Virani Liberal Parkdale—High Park, ON
I would like to ask you, Michael, and also Mr. Galkin in Mariupol, about this point you were making about what I would call “supports for civil society”. Given that you've indicated there's a situation where unfortunately the facts on the ground will not change, and people will not be returning to the Donbass, then they'll either stay in Ukraine or they will be resettled elsewhere. You mentioned a couple of things. One of the things that's been communicated to me on the health front—you mentioned public health—is that there are people from the Ukrainian Canadian Congress who have come to me and said that we need to support the displacement, which is occurring because of the war against Russian separatists, with supports connecting facilities in Canada with facilities in Ukraine, such as medical support and training for occupational and physical therapists. This has been suggested to me by Renata Roman of the Ukrainian Canadian Congress.
You mentioned media, but is there also an avenue to bridge not just the students—and I'll come back to the students—but also the faculties and academics here in Canada with their counterparts in Ukraine to help build up some of that civil society infrastructure? If you could perhaps address that at all....