Citizenship and Immigration Committee on Nov. 24th, 2016

[Robert Orr]

Mr. Chair, I think we could get back to you certainly with some data which might be helpful to you and an overview of some of the material that we do collect.

[The Chair, Liberal, Borys Wrzesnewskyj]

Mr. Cashaback.

[David Cashaback]

I would just add that in addition to the data that we collect on applicants—I think we know the average age and that kind of thing—the challenge that we face in the 2014 program evaluation goes a bit deeper in terms of trying to cross some of the outcomes: economic outcomes, employment incidence, average wage. But also a lot of those qualitative social benefits are things that we were able to do internally through this research and evaluation group Mr. Orr references, and we did a survey in order to get to a lot of the outcomes that we're talking about in terms of helping with child care and the like.

It's an aggregate. We don't necessarily collect all of it, but we can cross and use Statistics Canada and other sources to do a composite picture of what this clientele looks like.

[Julie Dzerowicz, Liberal, Davenport, ON]

I'm looking for whatever data you are able to give me that gives me a sense of what data we may want to start collecting or start focusing on. I'll leave it at that.

My next question has to do with another thing we hear a lot. I know there are people in my riding who are already trying to line up for January 1 to put in their applications, and there are only so many spaces. My understanding is that there are 10,000 spaces within a very short period of time, and after the 10,000 applications are received—or I don't know how many applications are received—basically there's a cut-off. I wonder whether or not there's a better way for us to go about this process and whether that has actually been explored. I don't know whether we accept applications for a full month, and then throw everybody into a big lottery and then basically pick.

It just seems really crazy that I have to team up constituents to figure out strategically how they're going to get their applications in. That seems like a crazy process. Has there been any thinking around that?

[Robert Orr]

There's considerable thought about how best to manage that. You're absolutely right. There are some real difficulties with the current process. It's hard to come up with one that is going to improve things, but we are continually looking at that.

We haven't announced exactly how it's going to work for this coming January, so we will hopefully be making an announcement about that shortly.

[Julie Dzerowicz, Liberal, Davenport, ON]

Yes, and change it. Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Borys Wrzesnewskyj]

Thank you.

Ms. Rempel, you have five minutes, please.

[Michelle Rempel, Conservative, Calgary Nose Hill, AB]

I'll start with some testimony that we heard from the Canadian Bar Association. We heard from them that family class immigration should not be increased to the detriment of economic or humanitarian class, rather that overall levels should be increased.

Given that testimony, and some others we heard to that effect, could you give the committee a sense of how many staff it takes to process 10,000 cases, and if the department were going to start processing 50,000 new cases a year, how many new staff that would require?

[Robert Orr]

Mr. Chair, I don't have that information at hand. It would take quite bit of analysis to determine exactly how we would manage that, so I can't give you that answer immediately.

[The Chair, Liberal, Borys Wrzesnewskyj]

Could you provide that to the committee, sir?

[Robert Orr]

It's a considerable amount of work, but yes, we would be able to come back to you on that.

[Michelle Rempel, Conservative, Calgary Nose Hill, AB]

We'll be in the process soon, I'm sure, of wrapping up this study, so that would be very helpful. If the committee is going to look at increases in this, obviously there's a cost in resourcing implications to your department. I think we'd be loath to make that recommendation. Right now, would you be able to say that increasing to levels that are much higher than now would take an increase in resources?

[Robert Orr]

Unquestionably.

[Michelle Rempel, Conservative, Calgary Nose Hill, AB]

Okay, great. That information would be very helpful.

To my colleague's point about data, that was also a concern for me. It seems there's a lot of anecdotal information and qualitative information on this program, and we heard that there wasn't a lot of quantitative, repeating data on the economic impact of parent and grandparent sponsored immigration.

For example, on the economic impact of these migrants coming in and providing services such as child care, do you track data on this at all right now, and if you don't, is this something that you're looking at generating or tracking, in terms of being able to validate some of the testimony that's coming out?

[David Cashaback]

Some of the data that we do track is linked to a lot of the Statistics Canada longitudinal income database. In terms of their performance in the labour market, and employment incidence, and average earnings, that's something we do have access to and can track back. Social assistance usage is something that we have tracked and have reported on, but the challenge has been, as you mentioned, getting into that more qualitative thing.

That's where our 2014 evaluation has been a very useful tool, and I'd say, in comparison to a lot of our partners, we have a lot more on that side of the story to tell, because of the survey and that methodology.

[Michelle Rempel, Conservative, Calgary Nose Hill, AB]

Great.

We also had some testimony saying that witnesses would like to see paragraph 117(19)(d) of IRPA repealed. This is the section that excludes a person if the sponsor previously made an application for permanent residence and became a permanent resident, and at the time of application, the foreign national was a non-accompanying family member of the sponsor and was not examined.

The complaint that came up in testimony was that if a man immigrates to Canada without knowing that a woman has given birth to his child, that child is not his family member and therefore cannot be sponsored.

Can you speak to any negative unintended consequences that could result from repealing this section, and maybe provide the committee with your understanding of the intent of that section of IRPA?

I know that's a little unfair. If it's not conducive right now, maybe you could provide that to us prior to our wrapping up the study.

[Robert Orr]

Sure.

Well, perhaps I can just start. It was introduced in 2002, to ensure that individuals who fail to declare family members for whatever reason would not be able to do so at a later date. I think one of the main issues around this is that it is seen as a significant dissuasive factor for fraud.

[Michelle Rempel, Conservative, Calgary Nose Hill, AB]

Good, yes.

[Robert Orr]

I think it is seen that if it were to be repealed, there might be an increase in fraud in this area.

[Michelle Rempel, Conservative, Calgary Nose Hill, AB]

We also heard a lot of testimony and recommendations around work permits for live-in caregivers, specifically changing the work permits to open work permits for caregivers so they can switch employers.

Can you speak to that in terms of the department's viewpoint, including similar sorts of lines of questioning? Are there unintended consequences should that happen? What concerns would the department have in terms of processing?

[Robert Orr]

I'm not sure we're in a position to respond to that.

We can talk about the process and how that works, but in terms of the unintended consequences, I'm not sure we're in a position to respond to that.

[Michelle Rempel, Conservative, Calgary Nose Hill, AB]

Why not?

[Robert Orr]

I'm not sure we have the information at hand to be able to do that.

[Michelle Rempel, Conservative, Calgary Nose Hill, AB]

Okay.

We heard that repeatedly in the testimony, so that would be something else we'd be interested in hearing from the department, just again in terms of capacity.

[The Chair, Liberal, Borys Wrzesnewskyj]

Twenty seconds.