Citizenship and Immigration Committee on Dec. 8th, 2016

[Robert Orr]

I did not say that. I said that's one of the factors, and there's a number of factors that we're looking at.

[Michelle Rempel, Conservative, Calgary Nose Hill, AB]

Okay. Would you be willing to table that information with the committee in a written format?

[Michelle Lattimore]

Absolutely, Madam Vice-Chair, we can provide information around quality assurance with our agents at the call centre.

As Mr. Orr mentioned, we do record 100% of the calls, and we are able to track not only the sort of quantitative pieces of that, but we are also able to provide agents with feedback on the tone that they use with callers, and their capacity to provide helpful and respectful advice.

[Michelle Rempel, Conservative, Calgary Nose Hill, AB]

Do you have a proactive quality assurance process for that, or is it just reactive?

[Michelle Lattimore]

We do have a proactive process.

[Michelle Rempel, Conservative, Calgary Nose Hill, AB]

Great.

One of the complaints that I get in my office is that when people phone the call centre, it seems that the algorithm the agents are driving to is to get an email address so that template information can be provided. Where my office gets burdened with it is: “They didn't answer my question; they just provided me with a template.”

Can you tell us a bit more on why that process is there as part of your service delivery algorithm?

[Michelle Lattimore]

Yes, Madam Vice-Chair, that process is there because a decision was made at one point that in order to deal with a very, very high volume of calls and our desire to help those clients who were really in a difficult situation and had applications that were beyond processing times and needed the attention of agents, we would try to use our website to provide those clients who were looking for standard case status information the ability to do that via the web.

What we have found though, and certainly the work that we did on the design challenge this year has led us to insights in this manner and to change our approach completely with those clients, was that it wasn't at all helpful for them to go to the web to get that information. In fact, they were calling us back again and again. So, we were speaking with a client three or four times instead of investing that extra minute the first time to really give them the assurance and the information that they were looking for. So—

[Michelle Rempel, Conservative, Calgary Nose Hill, AB]

I guess I'll just close with this, and it's more of something to explore with my colleagues around the table. I think it would be really useful. I've been doing this for five years now. We want to be your allies, and we want you to be our allies because immigration processing works when we're all giving the same information and messaging and it's arm's-length and it's not politicized. I think there's often a disconnect in terms of what MP office staff, especially new MP office staff, understand as your service delivery algorithms, and there's really no feedback in terms of saying, “Hey, this isn't working”, because what we're getting are the complaints all the time.

I would just suggest that if the department, as part of this survey, would be willing to provide greater information on where your algorithms are right now, we could provide feedback as well in terms of where we see the friction points on that, and then hopefully have some sort of continuous feedback mechanisms with MP office staff as well, too.

I think that, for me, would have been the first step, before changing the call centre process, because at the end of the day, we want to be on the same team here. I'm not sure if there's been any thought given to that sort of thing, but certainly I would offer this up in the time I have, and as a QA process as well.

[The Vice-Chair, NDP, Jenny Kwan]

Thank you for that.

I am the next questioner, and there are seven minutes for me.

I want to follow up on the question around scope. I think, Mr. Orr, you mentioned the scope of the information that can be provided to the individual who phones in. Could you run through for us if there are limitations on what kind of information, the scope of information, that can be given to any one person who phones in? If there is a limitation on scope, why is there a limitation?

[Robert Orr]

I think that overall we try to be quite forthcoming, and especially we're learning that it's valuable for us to be more forthcoming as well. There's real business value from our point of view, but certainly far better client service as well to provide as much information as we can. So, overwhelmingly, yes, we are providing that information now.

Again, Ms. Lattimore might be able to respond more specifically.

[Michelle Lattimore]

Our greatest concern at the call centre is really to ensure that the individuals who call have the right to access the information in their file. We're doing the work that we need to do to ensure that privacy is respected and that we're speaking to the right individual. Assuming that we're speaking to the right individual, there's a limited amount of information that we wouldn't be able to provide to a client. One of the things we have recognized is that there can be inconsistency—and I think this is a reflection of training, which we've been working on with call centre agents—in what one agent versus another may provide. That's something we're addressing very carefully as we move forward.

[The Vice-Chair, NDP, Jenny Kwan]

If training is the issue, then I would get on to that forthwith, because we do often get information and complaints back at our office about people not being able to get information. There have been times in our own office when we have phoned in and have experienced delays as well, or they haven't provided us the information and we have had to phone back and they've said that they'll get back to us, and on and on it has gone.

Imagine what that would be like if someone phoned in and the information was right there and because of your digital system you could actually tell them that they were not required to contact us again to provide that information, to add that extra step. Often when they provide us the information, there's something else missing and then we have to phone back to get the information, and on and on the cycle goes. If they could get that information forthwith right on the first call, it would make life so much easier for everybody. If training is the issue, I would really urge you to make that your first priority, to get everybody up to speed to make sure they provide that information accordingly.

I also want to ask about quality control. Every phone call is recorded, so how do you do the quality control? How often do you do it, so that you can sort of figure out where the situation is going awry?

[Michelle Lattimore]

We do record 100% of calls, and we have a client service unit at our call centre that reviews calls from agents at least twice a year so that individuals can sit down with their supervisors and learn. That's the proactive quality monitoring that we would do at a minimum with individuals. But of course we are also in a position in the event that anyone raises a question about a specific call, or in the event that we receive a complaint, that we can go back and review on a reactive basis at that point as well.

[The Vice-Chair, NDP, Jenny Kwan]

If you're doing the quality control checks twice a year, I wonder whether that's really sufficient. If you want to improve quality, you want to make sure that work is undertaken.

The other issue about service, and I raised it in my last meeting with officials as well, is with the inconsistent information that shows up on the website.

I thank you, Mr. Orr, and your department, for fixing my constituent's case. I really appreciate the prompt response to that. I would imagine, however, that would not have been the only time someone might have experienced something like that.

What kind of work is being undertaken by the department to make sure that accurate and not conflicting information is showing up on the government's official websites?

[Robert Orr]

Madam Vice-Chair, every time a change is made to the website, there is a considerable amount of work done to ensure that there is consistency in all areas of the website. However, it is a huge website and occasionally things do get missed and it's unfortunate when that happens. When something is brought to our attention, we certainly fix it quickly, but on the other hand, I think in the vast number of cases, we do get it right and it is consistent right across all aspects of the website. Where there are issues, there are client feedback mechanisms. People can let us know, and we take very rapid action to ensure that we rectify that situation.

[The Vice-Chair, NDP, Jenny Kwan]

Is it the case that every time there is a change, someone looks at every website and makes the changes accordingly? Even for the cross links, sometimes one link is related to another link and you have to catch all the links to correct the information. Are you telling me that this work is being undertaken every time there is a change in information?

[Robert Orr]

That is correct, and that's why sometimes it's frustratingly slow to make a change.

[The Vice-Chair, NDP, Jenny Kwan]

Is this standardized then? Do you have a standardized list of links to all of the information, and then it is a matter of the person who's making the changes to just go through each one accordingly? Do you have that list in order to make sure you don't miss any?

[Robert Orr]

Madam Chair, I don't think anyone on the panel here is in a position to respond with regard to how exactly that works and what the mechanics of it are.

[The Vice-Chair, NDP, Jenny Kwan]

Okay. Perhaps we can get that information back from the officials, then. I'm interested in that. If there's not a system in place to deal with that, then that's where you actually run into problems and where things get dropped. In the case of my constituent, it wasn't just because there was a change in a policy. It was something that had existed for some time and continued to be a problem.

Someone needs to make sure there's accurate information. That, I think, will help solve a lot of problems for a lot of people, on the side both of MPs and officials.

[Robert Orr]

Yes. I fully agree. I believe the mechanism is in place, but I simply do not know what it is or the details and mechanics of it. I think it's fair to say, though, that the sort of incident you have brought to our attention—thank you very much—is a rarity.

[The Vice-Chair, NDP, Jenny Kwan]

Thank you for that.

Ms. Dzerowicz, for seven minutes.

[Julie Dzerowicz, Liberal, Davenport, ON]

You mentioned that some significant changes have been made in the Montreal call centre, that you have given more latitude to the front-line workers, that there's been a change in attitude, and that there's better morale. I just want to acknowledge that, and I want to say thank you. I think we're all anxious to make sure that works well.

That said, I know you've gone out and done the human-centred design feedback loop. Have you actually gone to the front-line workers, taken groups of them, and asked them, for instance, “How is it that you can help? What are your thoughts?” I know that when I'm not happy at a customer service thing, I'm yelling, pretty much, and I don't like that, but they must get it all the time. What feedback have they given, and how have you integrated that into improvements?

[Michelle Lattimore]

Madam Vice-Chair, we have in fact consulted with our agents. It was one of the first undertakings when we established our client experience area of focus in September 2015. They were expressing dissatisfaction. They felt they could not help callers the way they wanted to. That was certainly impacting wellness, I would say, at the call centre, in a way that we weren't comfortable with.

They have been our allies in making changes at the call centre. They have been very supportive to date of the efforts we have made to give them additional tools. I think soft skills training has been really important. We do provide our agents with 23 weeks of training. It's quite an extensive process, but we realized that sometimes what they really need is more training in how to talk to people, how to phrase things, how to question properly.

We understand from them as well that sometimes there's the perception that inconsistent information is being delivered, when actually it's because the agents haven't been able to get at the core of what the clients are really trying to ask. Sometimes that's a language barrier. We need to provide agents with tools to help them get at the core so that if clients calling us two or three times are asking the same question every time, the agent's understanding is the same every time.

[Julie Dzerowicz, Liberal, Davenport, ON]

I think what you're highlighting for me is that language really is an issue, even for people who have been here for many, many years. Often they just understand things differently, and maybe that's why they ask the same questions. It's something I will be pondering as we go through this study, about how we can continue to address that and better serve. I would just encourage continued feedback from the front lines, because I do think they know where they're at.

My second question is around the error rate in applications that come in. At times I hear that if people have one thing wrong on their application, their application is just set aside. They don't always have to start from the beginning, but in some cases it majorly delays their application. Do you actually monitor the error rate for each application process for visas, for express entry, for permanent residence, for Canadian applications? Do you actually have an error rate for each, and then what do you do with that? Do you say, “Oh, this has reached a high level, so let's look at the actual application to see where it is we're finding the errors”, and then actually make changes? Perhaps someone could address that.