Citizenship and Immigration Committee on Sept. 28th, 2017

[Bob Saroya, Conservative, Markham—Unionville, ON]

Going back to a similar question, if some of the people are spending thousands of dollars—you see it on the news or read about it on a daily basis—how many of them would be sent back 30 or 60 days from that initial interview? Would they all go through the regular process?

[Michael MacDonald]

Well, that all depends on what stage of the asylum processing continuum.... Decisions are made around a person's inadmissibility, which may be at the port of entry. Inadmissibility can also be looked at through other partners. Then, you go to the eligibility processing, at which point people can be determined not eligible and would have 30 days in which to leave the country. Then there's the IRB hearing, which may make a determination on a person's application, and they may be asked to leave the country if they're not.... Sir, it depends on where in the process....

[Bob Saroya, Conservative, Markham—Unionville, ON]

Mr. Jacques, what are the chances of a criminal organization slipping some people through? Knowing that they won't be eligible for refugee status, they slip through. What are the chances of somebody slipping through, not even claiming refugee status?

[The Co-Chair (Mr. Robert Oliphant), Liberal, Rob Oliphant]

You have twenty-five seconds.

[Jacques Cloutier]

I'm not sure I understand the question. You want to know, if they do not present at the border...?

[Bob Saroya, Conservative, Markham—Unionville, ON]

What are the chances of criminal organizations slipping people through the border? They're not even claiming refugee status because they know they're not going to get it.

[Jacques Cloutier]

Did you want to...?

[A/Commr Joanne Crampton]

If I may, I could perhaps answer that.

In terms of human smuggling, which I believe is what you're referring to, we have several programs in place. We have a terrific partnership internationally in many different areas where we continually investigate human smuggling, to prevent and deter it from coming to Canada.

[The Co-Chair (Mr. Robert Oliphant), Liberal, Rob Oliphant]

Thank you very much.

Ms. Damoff.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

I'm going to share my time with Mr. Whalen.

I want to follow up on a question my colleague asked, as did a Conservative member as well, in terms of who a refugee is. Does Canada take refugees for economic reasons, or are people coming here because they fear for their lives?

[Michael MacDonald]

Canada does not take refugees for economic reasons. We select immigrants for economic reasons in our levels plan, under those economic streams.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

That's a totally different system.

[Michael MacDonald]

You are correct.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

In terms of the people who are crossing illegally, if we're accepting them into Canada, we're only accepting refugees who are coming here because they're afraid for their lives.

[Michael MacDonald]

We are accepting people to make a claim before the Immigration and Refugee Board where they will present their basis of claim as to why they should be granted refugee protection status by Canada. Then, if they are granted status, they have the ability to apply for permanent residency and to enter Canada through that stream.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

Thank you.

My second question has to do with how you act proactively. When we were in Washington, all members of the committee asked the American border services—because at the time, it was an issue in Manitoba—what they do to try to prevent this.

You did touch on this in your remarks, but I know that historically—because this isn't a new problem—you've worked quite closely with the U.S. to identify where there are issues and have even gone to other countries' embassies to try to stem the flow of people. We sent two of my colleagues down into the United States to deal with that.

Could you talk briefly—I only have a short time—about how you work with the United States throughout the years to stem these types of asylum seekers?

[Jacques Cloutier]

Mike, did you want to speak from your perspective?

[Michael MacDonald]

I'll start at the very strategic level and will be very quick.

As I mentioned, we have long-standing relationships in the immigration and citizenship world with American colleagues—and all colleagues, quite frankly. We belong to bilateral and multilateral organizations. We deal with foreign governments here in Canada through their diplomatic presence. We have a healthy relationship, and we use it. We also, of course, have our missions abroad, so we actually have a Canadian footprint that we can engage as we go across the world.

When it comes to the operational aspect, we have well-established lanes of communication, information sharing, protocols, and so on in the operational world, in particular with the United States in terms of immigration overall.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

One thing they said to us is that it's not illegal to leave a country; it's only illegal to enter a country. There is thus nothing they can do by way of stopping people from leaving the country.

I guess I had better turn it over to my colleague.

[The Co-Chair (Mr. Robert Oliphant), Liberal, Rob Oliphant]

Mr. Whalen.

[Nick Whalen, Liberal, St. John's East, NL]

Thank you all. It was a very enlightening presentation, and I feel much more confident now that the situation is being handled properly and well, in accordance with our expectations.

In terms of what might happen, Mr. MacDonald, you seem to have a lot of expertise and information regarding flow patterns and what might change in the future, and it seems that your organization monitors that.

I have two questions in that line.

The first is, would your model suggest that next year we should see a continuation or a drop-off in the Haitian migration to Canada?

The second is, should we suspend the safe third country agreement with the United States? How much of an additional impact might we see, as a result of doing so, at our normal border crossings, given the 11 million undocumented migrants in the U.S.? And if doing so were to become knowledge, what type of flow would you anticipate such a change in Canadian policy would cause?

[Michael MacDonald]

Chair, to answer both those questions, honestly, it's extremely difficult to talk about hypotheticals. I know that's not a great response, but it is the truth. It's impossible to determine people's perceptions versus the realities and all the factors I have talked about, which push and pull people.

In terms of next year's numbers, you're right: certain decisions could occur in the United States that might or might not have an impact on next year's volumes. You do have, as you pointed out, sir, a large number of undocumented workers in the United States. How that plays into the factor is extremely difficult to talk about.

In terms of the hypothetical situation of having or not having a safe third country agreement, it's really very hard to predict, but I will say this again in closing. We have an asylum system established, we have regional and national footprints established in order to handle our number one goal, which is a managed border asylum system, and that is what we're striving for every day when we go to work, to be frank.

[The Co-Chair (Mr. Robert Oliphant), Liberal, Rob Oliphant]

I'm afraid I need to end it there. We don't have time for another round, so I'm going to suggest that this brings the end of our time for questioning.

I want to thank the officials who are with us today. Some of you are relatively new in your positions.

Mr. MacDonald, welcome to your first time in this position in this committee. Your testimony was excellent.

I will remind the members of the citizenship and immigration committee that we will continue with our study on Tuesday and Thursday of next week.

Now I'll turn to Mr. McKay.

[The Co-Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

I'll add, to the members of the public safety committee, that Bill C-21 passed second reading last night, so the committee's order of business will be Bill C-21 on Tuesday morning and on Thursday. The minister will appear first thing on Tuesday morning.

The meeting is adjourned.

[The Co-Chair (Mr. Robert Oliphant), Liberal, Rob Oliphant]

The meeting is adjourned..